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jen'ari
Posted: Monday, January 29, 2018 5:56:10 AM
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Joined: 5/3/2014
Posts: 2,098
Lord_Ball wrote:

jen'ari - The main thing here I'm not overly excited about is the LS Defense and Soresu combo. Largely due to the overlap. I do agree with other that a cost bump is likely in order, Obi-wan has a distinct void in costs for the higher 40's low 50's range, and with what this one offers would fit in there nicely.


curious.. what is the issue with Soresu and L defense? Soresu and Evade have long been destroyed by adjacent shooters, this helps him stay alive against a shooter that gets adjacent.
So, Cad bane wants to bypass Soresu by getting adjacent and just killing my piece, well now I have a chance to save myself.

I keep hearing bump the cost, but this piece is meant to be a power 9.5 piece. I still have no proof of a need to bump the cost.
Lord_Ball
Posted: Monday, January 29, 2018 6:14:40 AM
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As I said my issue with that combo is the overlapping portion - A FP can already reroll Soresu, so the only point of LSD (Edit: I should go home and rethink my life after typing that) is while adjacent, but more than that it is strictly adjacent shooters, as Block in place of Defense would take care of everything else without overlap (Edit 2: Clarification: it has a greater feeling of redundancy which I'm not a fan of, regardless of the slight difference it offers).

As to the cost bump, comparing him to other Obi-wans all others (aside from & Anakin and 100pt Rebel) have double, yours has triple. That is pretty much it for the SAs in your cost range, where as you have several decent additional ones. Force Powers (in the 36-42 Rep Obi cost range) are Force Heal 20 and LS Deflect (1 with LS Assault). Comparatively speaking your version kinda puts them to shame, so upping the cost to Obi's "cost void" seems like a good fit.
surf_rider56
Posted: Monday, January 29, 2018 7:02:54 AM
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Joined: 9/19/2008
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jen'ari wrote:


I keep hearing bump the cost, but this piece is meant to be a power 9.5 piece. I still have no proof of a need to bump the cost.


Before I get to your quote jen, congrats to GG. I believe I'm the last one to vote and you win no matter what way I'd vote ... sigh, always a bridesmaid, rarely a bride RollEyes

jen, Seriously Don't want to start up the cost discussion again, but this seems to be another instance where you look at things one way and others are looking at it another way. You're looking Meta/Power levels and some of here in CCC land are just looking at it as a custom character; I think we can all agree to disagree, congratulate GG and move on.

Peace,

surf
jen'ari
Posted: Monday, January 29, 2018 7:14:07 AM
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Joined: 5/3/2014
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heck ya Congrats to GG, mulit-layered piece is cool.


@surf
not really, because the game is meant as a competitive game. Therefore, design comes from a competitive nature. My piece is competitive in today's field.

To be honest, it is sometimes hard to design on CCC when people have fixed ways of judging. You are super biased against abilities for instance and really do not go outside your own thinking. I think it is odd that a piece with 2 really powerful abilities would not cost as much as a piece with 5 unhelpful abilities.
I try to vary my judgements based on what the person is trying to do with it.
Like GG's firefighter droids one time. I know they are not meant for mainstream squads, etc. or if a piece is meant to be a power 9 piece I would rank it accordingly. Part of my judging comes from what the piece is meant to do.

So, if you do not like that it has too many abilities that is a personal problem of your own you have to bypass while judging. Your cost calculator is not correct and should not be used in determining how you judge others designs imo.

Everyone has their own way of judging but I guess I look at it more from a "can this do what I want it to in the competitive realm"? and others are thinking just casually so there will always be a disconnect. But if an argument is brought up it should be recognized (especially if there is no proof otherwise, as of now, I say it is a meta shifting power 9.5 piece that will not be an auto include and no one has been able to dispute that... so it seems to be exactly what I wanted it to be and should be judged accordingly).
General_Grievous
Posted: Monday, January 29, 2018 7:16:53 AM
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surf_rider56 wrote:
jen'ari wrote:


I keep hearing bump the cost, but this piece is meant to be a power 9.5 piece. I still have no proof of a need to bump the cost.


Before I get to your quote jen, congrats to GG. I believe I'm the last one to vote and you win no matter what way I'd vote ... sigh, always a bridesmaid, rarely a bride RollEyes

jen, Seriously Don't want to start up the cost discussion again, but this seems to be another instance where you look at things one way and others are looking at it another way. You're looking Meta/Power levels and some of here in CCC land are just looking at it as a custom character; I think we can all agree to disagree, congratulate GG and move on.

Peace,

surf


+1 and amen, just different viewpoints Jen. And proof is only as good as people's trust in that proof is. If you don't agree with other's opinions that's fine brother, we can agree to disagree and keep on being an Internet brotherhood haha.

Lord_Ball
Posted: Monday, January 29, 2018 7:36:09 AM
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Joined: 4/19/2010
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jen'ari wrote:
Everyone has their own way of judging but I guess I look at it more from a "can this do what I want it to in the competitive realm"? and others are thinking just casually so there will always be a disconnect. But if an argument is brought up it should be recognized (especially if there is no proof otherwise, as of now, I say it is a meta shifting power 9.5 piece that will not be an auto include and no one has been able to dispute that... so it seems to be exactly what I wanted it to be and should be judged accordingly).


It's not a bad design, but I think you're a little to attached to your focus for it. Would a 5pt increase like Alex suggested break the design or it's intent? Not likely. Anyway I offered exactly why I feel a cost bump would be beneficial to the design, and yes it does stem from a personal preference of mine to not replace older pieces whenever possible. Sometimes it's inevitable, but I don't feel that applies in this case personally.

Either way Congrats GG.
surf_rider56
Posted: Monday, January 29, 2018 7:41:32 AM
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Joined: 9/19/2008
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Location: Orange County, CA
Moving on hopefully .... whats next GG?
Lord_Ball
Posted: Monday, January 29, 2018 7:49:40 AM
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Surf all trhis talk about cost has sparked my curiousity as to the exponential cost jumps in your calculator.

Take Ooroo for instance - he really only has 2 beneficial SAs (Flight and Self-Destruct Sequence 30). LS Wielder is accomplished simply by having an ignited LS on the figure or an ability with LS in it so really shouldn't add to cost I wouldn't think, the other 3 abilities would be negatives, and therefore probably shouldn't apply towards a jump.

Basically I'm curious as to whether the calculator differentiates negative and positive abilities for the "jumps".

Oh and you can still cast your votes even if it's "pointless".
jen'ari
Posted: Monday, January 29, 2018 8:05:46 AM
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I have no beef with anyone or anything. I just, inherently, feel that the game has to go somewhere. It gets super boring playing the same old faces. How many republic Cin Drallig Squads do I have to play against? How many Thrawn swap out activate squads do I have to play against. Why am I always seeing Vindicated in every single Mando squad?
We need to not fear replacing junk, but we need to set the tone for Tier 1 options. I guess that is my point. Raising his cost would jsut bring him from a tier 9.5-10 piece to a tier 8.5 -9 piece. which would not make a dent in competitive play which means it does not fulfill its purpose.
surf_rider56
Posted: Monday, January 29, 2018 8:58:06 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 9/19/2008
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Location: Orange County, CA
Lord_Ball wrote:
Surf all trhis talk about cost has sparked my curiousity as to the exponential cost jumps in your calculator.

Take Ooroo for instance - he really only has 2 beneficial SAs (Flight and Self-Destruct Sequence 30). LS Wielder is accomplished simply by having an ignited LS on the figure or an ability with LS in it so really shouldn't add to cost I wouldn't think, the other 3 abilities would be negatives, and therefore probably shouldn't apply towards a jump.

Basically I'm curious as to whether the calculator differentiates negative and positive abilities for the "jumps".

Oh and you can still cast your votes even if it's "pointless".


Regarding Votes

GG 3rd

shmi/spry 1st or 2nd; never got far enough to decide and it was pointless with GG winning.


Regarding my "Cost Calculator

It does indeed assign negative numbers; as to how it affects the "jumps" donnyrides could answer that mathematically, but not me BigGrin CH has a copy now; if he wants to try to figure out the equations, be my guest. Near as I can tell, it doesn't Jump as greatly if at all; I think its more of a threshold thing (4 abilities at 18 ... 5 abilities (with a 2 pt ability jumping to 23 instead of 22, etc.) No, I've never mapped out where exactly/what makes it jump ( 2 pt power.3 pt power.) I'm not an expert at Excel and it would give me a headache (Like trying to decipher Koba when he gets on a roll.) I just know it gets blasted close to what I think it should be and its right on target 95% of the time. I'm certainly not perfect and I'd be the first to say it.
jen'ari
Posted: Monday, January 29, 2018 9:39:20 AM
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Joined: 5/3/2014
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ya so essentially Cloaked and Gunner can be almost the same in terms of costing a piece. Kind of silly imo.

This stat line
HP 70
Def 19
Atk 10
Dam 20

Stable Footing
Gunner
Double Attack
Breath Mask
Cleave

CE
Allies gain Gunner

vs.

HP 40
Def 16
Atk 5
Dam 10

Master Tactician
Cloaked

CE
Allies with Stealth gain Advantageous attack.


Who costs more?
surf_rider56
Posted: Monday, January 29, 2018 10:04:29 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 9/19/2008
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Location: Orange County, CA
jen, I Really don't want to get into this cost thing with you. You and I don't see eye to eye and I'm ok with that.

I'll give you this much and then I'm signing off on this.

I'd cost Gunner a 1 and cloaked a 4.

Out.
jen'ari
Posted: Monday, January 29, 2018 10:53:11 AM
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Joined: 5/3/2014
Posts: 2,098
surf_rider56 wrote:
jen, I Really don't want to get into this cost thing with you. You and I don't see eye to eye and I'm ok with that.

I'll give you this much and then I'm signing off on this.

I'd cost Gunner a 1 and cloaked a 4.

Out.


ok that is good. I just hope your cost calculator feels the same way.
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