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swinefeld wrote:Quote:If I have Jolt and Opp, and I shoot an unactivated character... Would I get the Opp Damage( not the attack boost, because the attack happened before the save) if the character fails the jolt save? No.Opportunist doesn't "trigger". It is either on or it isn't at the time the attack is declared. Cool! Thanks! How do we find out if an ability is triggered or not then? For example, How is Rend, which requires trigger (both hits to be successful) different, than Opp, which requires a trigger of activating. Sorry of I am being difficult, A "No" tho is not an explanation... I am asking because there are tons of abilities with these wordings on them... So how do I figure out the difference between a triggered ability and a non triggered ability? Is there a ruling that we have that will help us figure this out? Or is every scenario going to become designer intent, or a vote on the rules committee?
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Rend isn't actually different. For both Rend and Opportunist, they are calculated in step 5 if they are included. In step 5, you calculate the damage. For example, "Okay, if I hit then I get base damage plus Rend for 30 total." You know in step 5 whether or not a hit will get the Rend bonus.
An example of an ability that would not be counted in step 5 is Poison. If you hit, then when hit there is a save to determine whether the Poison provides a damage bonus. Another example would be Vicious Attack, which triples the damage of a critical hit.
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wouldn't rend be a later adjustment considering you don't know at step 5 if the bonus will occur?
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Now this is getting more complicated... Is there a way to list all the abilities that trigger on step 5.... and then the others that trigger post step 5?
And anything triggering POST step 5, is there a sep roll for abilities like dam red or VCA?
And maybe a reason... As to why they are actually different, like a ruling for it?
Sorry if this is difficult, I'm just failing to see a reason, and "no" doesn't satisfy my curiosity! lol.
Seriously, not trying to be a dick or anything, I am genuinely curious about this, and am wondering if its something thats just never been asked, and been played wrong on accident.
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The way I look at it is that you check for the ability when you need it, so Opportunist would be checked for at Step 5 because it is an ability declared during the attack declaration. Beyond that, you wouldn't be redeclaring or rechecking for it, so if the target becomes activated by the attack, the bonus from Opportunist wouldn't just pop up.
Think of the reverse situation here. Take the Sith Assassin, who has Cunning Attack and Paralysis. If he barely hit a character and they failed their paralysis save, would Cunning Attack's bonus disappear? If the answer were yes, then it would also mean that the attack missed instead and then the character wasn't activated, so then because the character wasn't activated, Cunning Attack would then apply, allowing the character to be hit and paralyzed, but then...(continue the infinite loop at your leisure).
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EmporerDragon wrote:The way I look at it is that you check for the ability when you need it, so Opportunist would be checked for at Step 5 because it is an ability declared during the attack declaration. Beyond that, you wouldn't be redeclaring or rechecking for it, so if the target becomes activated by the attack, the bonus from Opportunist wouldn't just pop up.
Think of the reverse situation here. Take the Sith Assassin, who has Cunning Attack and Paralysis. If he barely hit a character and they failed their paralysis save, would Cunning Attack's bonus disappear? If the answer were yes, then it would also mean that the attack missed instead and then the character wasn't activated, so then because the character wasn't activated, Cunning Attack would then apply, allowing the character to be hit and paralyzed, but then...(continue the infinite loop at your leisure).
Excellent example. 
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EmporerDragon wrote:The way I look at it is that you check for the ability when you need it, so Opportunist would be checked for at Step 5 because it is an ability declared during the attack declaration. Beyond that, you wouldn't be redeclaring or rechecking for it, so if the target becomes activated by the attack, the bonus from Opportunist wouldn't just pop up.
Think of the reverse situation here. Take the Sith Assassin, who has Cunning Attack and Paralysis. If he barely hit a character and they failed their paralysis save, would Cunning Attack's bonus disappear? If the answer were yes, then it would also mean that the attack missed instead and then the character wasn't activated, so then because the character wasn't activated, Cunning Attack would then apply, allowing the character to be hit and paralyzed, but then...(continue the infinite loop at your leisure).
See I understand that completely, but I guess I just viewed it different. In my mind with the CUnning/paralysis thing, you would get the Bonus to the attack, then everything happens, you become activated, and you would lose damage bonus. I guess I thought the attack hit, so no way at that point to go back and change anything with the attack hitting or not. So even if the attack bonus was gone, the attack bonus would not affect anything. But, before damage was assigned, you could lose the bonus from the damage. I get what your saying, and it does make sense, and its how I have played the game my entire life, but.... I was looking at things, and the wording and faq weren't adding up for me so I thought I would ask.
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Does this mean that damage from djem so or Riposte occurs before damage from the initial strike?
Deceptive says (+10 Damage against an enemy who has activated this round)
So this does not need an Attack Rating added before the roll it is damage based off of activation.
Step 5 states
5. Declare the attack, including combined fire, Careful Shot, Deadeye, and other abilities that must be declared before making the attack roll. The total bonus to attack, defense of the target, and possible damage (barring critical hits or later adjustments) should be declared and agreed upon before continuing.
It could be that you do not have to add Deceptive into the attack roll and it could be added later after other things have resolved.
This of course would mean that Jolt would stop Advantaeous Attack form working.
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jen'ari wrote:Does this mean that damage from djem so or Riposte occurs before damage from the initial strike? It can, if successful and not interrupted by a same/similar ability that starts a new attack sequence.
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droidadmiral wrote:wouldn't rend be a later adjustment considering you don't know at step 5 if the bonus will occur? For Rend, assuming the first attack had hit, when you are calculating damage at step 5 of the second attack you know that a hit will get the Rend bonus. If the second attack misses, you don't get the Rend bonus, of course, but we don't calculate the damage for a miss... it's always 0.
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