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Bib's Ally's Ally vs Mother Talzin's Ally's Ally Options
TimmerB123
Posted: Monday, December 28, 2020 11:38:35 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 4,729
Location: Chicago
The CEs in question (bolded for emphasis)

Quote:
Bib Fortuna, Majordomo's CE
If a Hutt Cartel ally doesn't move on its turn, a Medium or smaller Hutt Cartel ally adjacent to it can move up to its speed.



Quote:
Mother Talzin's CE:
Nightsister allies with line of sight to a Nightsister ally are immune to abilities whose names contain Lightning and gain Cloaked.



I have been told, that Bib Fortuna cannot move or be moved by his CE, because "he cannot be an ally of himself" (which I understand, but that is only part of the issue), and both allies must be subject to CEs. The argument against that is that Bib IS an ally of his ally, and it is not clear which ally of the one who doesn't move or the one moved needs to be. Allies of each other - or both allies of Bib himself - or one is an ally of Bib, and one is an ally of that ally?



Mother Talzin on the other hand, the ruling is that while she cannot gain cloaked herself (not an ally of herself), she does qualify for the second ally (the ally of her ally), thus if an allied Nightsister has LoS to her alone, they would still get cloaked.


These rulings seem to be in opposition of each other.


It would seem that if nothing else, Bib should be able to be moved when an adjacent Hutt Cartel ally doesn't move on their turn.


Also - if a Nightsister were made that were not subject to CEs (spoiler), obviously they could not gain cloaked from Mother Talzin, but would they be able to be the allied Nightsister that another Nightsister has sole LoS of, and they gain cloaked?
FlyingArrow
Posted: Saturday, January 2, 2021 6:51:56 PM
Rank: Moderator
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Joined: 5/26/2009
Posts: 8,428
From the Rules Committee:

Ally of an ally
Bib and Talzin both work like General Obi-Wan Kenobi (GOWK) in the sense that there is a use of "ally" in the CE, where in all 3 commander effects that use refers to the "ally of an ally".

Quote:
Bib Fortuna, Majordomo's CE
If a Hutt Cartel ally doesn't move on its turn, a Medium or smaller Hutt Cartel ally adjacent to it can move up to its speed.


Quote:
Mother Talzin's CE:
Nightsister allies with line of sight to a Nightsister ally are immune to abilities whose names contain Lightning and gain Cloaked.


Quote:
General Obi-Wan Kenobi's CE:
Each follower gets +4 Attack and +4 Defense as long as it has an ally within 6 squares.


In each case, the commander counts as an ally of an ally. (In each CE, the second bolded term above refers to the "ally of the ally"). Bib can be moved by his own CE, but he cannot be used to move someone else.


Who is "subject" to the CE?
Also, for the purposes of Droid/Savage/Disruptive, it is useful to know who is "subject" to the CE. For Talzin and GOWK, the character getting the benefit is subject to the CE, but the ally in line of sight/within 6 is just providing the condition for the CE to trigger. The other character is not subject to the CE, so they can be a Droid or in a Disruptive bubble and the CE would still work. (Unless, of course, the "ally of the ally" is GOWK or Talzin in a Disruptive bubble, in which case the CE is disrupted directly.)

However, for Bib's CE, the non-moving character has to declare that they are not moving, like Careful Shot or Deadeye, at which point the CE can be used: zero-time movement of an adjacent ally. With that declaration and movement, both characters are participating in the CE and so both are subject to the CE. Neither can be a Droid/Savage and if either is in a Disruptive bubble the CE will not work.
TimmerB123
Posted: Sunday, January 3, 2021 6:46:46 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 4,729
Location: Chicago
Thank you for the very thorough and clear ruling.

It is consistent now (really the only “change” from previous unofficial rulings is that Bib can be moved via his CE).

Though that is minor and Likely won’t be used very much, it now is uniform with other CEs.

Also the ruling of declaring non-movement being active vs passive (being in LoS or w/in 6) also makes it more clear why both allies must be subject to CEs in Bib’s CE.

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