|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 6/6/2021
Posts: 326
|
FlyingArrow wrote:Udorian84 wrote:FlyingArrow wrote:There weren't many surprises in there.
We have a difference of opinion. My opinion is that squad types (Jabba/Bib for example) can be very very diverse. Each with its own merits. I practiced against myself quite a bit to see who would be brought Tarre Vizsla or Jango Fett. I couldn't figure it out, but I do know that the 2 squads can play very very differently with the switch of but 1 character. The supporting cast are the surprises that should not be given away. Still not sure which squads or person you're talking about, but in terms of spry and tint's Mandalorian squads (if one of those squads is what you're talking about), those exact squads had already been run in the previous days/months. They both seem like players who wouldn't reveal their planned squads for the championship, so if you saw someone else playing them it was probably just a matter of them picking up an existing squad from a good player - no necessarily a matter of someone revealing a secret. Or, for that matter, maybe coincidentally re-creating it. When you're talking about a 6-character squad there are only so many combinations. Someone exactly created my 9-activation Resistance squad that I ran in the Team Tournament: http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/228599/numb-sneezy-bowcasters--2021-vassalcon-team-tournament-It's private so I don't know who did it, but we both stumbled on exactly the same combination. In any case, I think we can agree that secrets should be kept. I will not keep the discussion going as I think I found the answer. I guess it serves as a caution to others that people are copying your exact squad down to the number of activations and support pieces and playing other people with them and saying that they are the squad that they might use at the tournament. Thanks for the input.
|
|
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member
, Moderator
Joined: 5/8/2008
Posts: 2,220
Location: East Coast
|
Back to topic...it was awesome to see the diversity of the squads. I wished, as someone on the sidelines, that we could record these and watch them. That would be a blast.
Speaking of...does Vassal record? (being a bit lazy here, but it's been too long since I've played)
(edit: Wow...I went back to topic and then right back off topic didn't I???)
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 6/10/2010
Posts: 756
Location: The Shadowlands of Kashyyyk
|
FlyingArrow wrote:Udorian84 wrote:FlyingArrow wrote:There weren't many surprises in there.
We have a difference of opinion. My opinion is that squad types (Jabba/Bib for example) can be very very diverse. Each with its own merits. I practiced against myself quite a bit to see who would be brought Tarre Vizsla or Jango Fett. I couldn't figure it out, but I do know that the 2 squads can play very very differently with the switch of but 1 character. The supporting cast are the surprises that should not be given away. Still not sure which squads or person you're talking about, but in terms of spry and tint's Mandalorian squads (if one of those squads is what you're talking about), those exact squads had already been run in the previous days/months. They both seem like players who wouldn't reveal their planned squads for the championship, so if you saw someone else playing them it was probably just a matter of them picking up an existing squad from a good player - no necessarily a matter of someone revealing a secret. Or, for that matter, maybe coincidentally re-creating it. When you're talking about a 6-character squad there are only so many combinations. Someone exactly created my 9-activation Resistance squad that I ran in the Team Tournament: http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/228599/numb-sneezy-bowcasters--2021-vassalcon-team-tournament-It's private so I don't know who did it, but we both stumbled on exactly the same combination. In any case, I think we can agree that secrets should be kept. Just to confirm this. In a moment of serendipity, spryguy1981 and I have posted almost identical Lost Tribe squads exactly a week apart. The only difference being a single unique which changed the last filler piece we each selected. Now I'm fairly certain spry didn't copy me. Like Flying Arrow said, sometimes there's only so many ways you can build a squad when you're trying to build it a certain way.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 6/10/2010
Posts: 756
Location: The Shadowlands of Kashyyyk
|
imyurhukaberry wrote:Back to topic...it was awesome to see the diversity of the squads. I wished, as someone on the sidelines, that we could record these and watch them. That would be a blast.
Speaking of...does Vassal record? (being a bit lazy here, but it's been too long since I've played)
(edit: Wow...I went back to topic and then right back off topic didn't I???) DarkDracul has a couple dozen recent games recorded and up on YouTube to watch.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 6/6/2021
Posts: 326
|
Cassus fett wrote:
Just to confirm this. In a moment of serendipity, spryguy1981 and I have posted almost identical Lost Tribe squads exactly a week apart. The only difference being a single unique which changed the last filler piece we each selected. Now I'm fairly certain spry didn't copy me. Like Flying Arrow said, sometimes there's only so many ways you can build a squad when you're trying to build it a certain way.
I am a fairly smart person. This is not a discussion on whether or not a random coincidence occurred, it didn't. The squads were copied 100% even down to the map that was chosen. They were copied with the intent to A) learn the squad themselves and/or B) share the squad with a competitor so that they had a better chance to beat that squad as well. Which is 100% fine. It was just shocking to me. Now that I know, it is no problem.
|
|
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member
, Moderator
Joined: 5/8/2008
Posts: 2,220
Location: East Coast
|
Some lessons are hard learned...but good attitude about it.
Keep up the spirit!
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 4/18/2008
Posts: 1,097
Location: Kokomo
|
imyurhukaberry wrote:Back to topic...it was awesome to see the diversity of the squads. I wished, as someone on the sidelines, that we could record these and watch them. That would be a blast. Here's my 15min condensed video of the final game.
Leave a Like and Subscribe. 
|
|
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member
, Moderator
Joined: 5/26/2009
Posts: 8,428
|
Udorian84 wrote:Cassus fett wrote:
Just to confirm this. In a moment of serendipity, spryguy1981 and I have posted almost identical Lost Tribe squads exactly a week apart. The only difference being a single unique which changed the last filler piece we each selected. Now I'm fairly certain spry didn't copy me. Like Flying Arrow said, sometimes there's only so many ways you can build a squad when you're trying to build it a certain way.
I am a fairly smart person. This is not a discussion on whether or not a random coincidence occurred, it didn't. The squads were copied 100% even down to the map that was chosen. They were copied with the intent to A) learn the squad themselves and/or B) share the squad with a competitor so that they had a better chance to beat that squad as well. Which is 100% fine. It was just shocking to me. Now that I know, it is no problem. I didn't play Udorian and didn't finalize my squad until less than an hour before the tournament, so I'm sure I'm not involved here at all. So take my comments as a neutral party. A and B are both perfectly valid reasons to choose a squad for a practice game. The only issue would be if it's a squad that was shared in confidence. Otherwise, you're just guessing at what's going to be played anyway. Are you sure those squads weren't public knowledge already?
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 4,729
Location: Chicago
|
Happily make public my 548 versions of each of the top squads this year. Bet a dime to a donut you can find an near identical duplicate (to the last 20pts of scrubs) dated several months before last week for each of them.
Good combos get stolen is the unfortunate truth, and that's how the game is. But to think you had the idea first is almost always wrong. Regardless, if there is a good combo you see, are you never allowed to play it? That also seems silly.
I played a very similar version to my 2021 Champs squad in a regional last year, so I know I'm in the clear (not that my squad would've surprised anyone that knows me). I also have played quite a few Jabba squads this year, and didn't end up playing my best one (went with the Thrawn version instead).
To be clear, if I were playtesting for The Champs, and specified the squad I was using was for the champs - I'd expect my opponent to say "I'm considering nearly the exact same thing", and then all bets are off. If they didn't say that, then copied your squad exactly, I would be mad, but nothing to do about it.
Hell I playtested a Jabba/nightsister squad that I was thinking about for the Champs with Lillywan, and she used that exact squad (or a variant we discussed in depth) at the live Indiana regional that same weekend, coming in a close second. That was one of the reasons I changed it up for the champs. I would have been better not to, lol.
In the end, just play what you want and have fun friend. I honestly don't believe anyone was trying to be shady. Maybe communication wasn't the best, but I don't think we have "intentional cheaters" anymore in the community.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 2/16/2009
Posts: 1,485
|
Ok, for what's it worth, part of me wonders if somehow I'm the "unwitting" culprit. I will contend that in a playtest game I did play a similar variant to the squad that Timmer used in the championships as a chance to playtest a squad that I was giving strong consideration to use in the Team Tournament (in which my teammate was Timmer btw). I only had one practice game leading into GenCon and that was with Udorian in which I used a similar build to the one Tim played in the championships. I don't know if this is where this entire post is coming from or not, but if it is, Tim can confirm that both he and I had discussed me using that style build for the team tournament. Initially he designed the squad to use in his Birthday tournament last year without the Hunter and I later added the Hunter to the squad as a means to deal with Talon were I to ever run that squad in an event. Its one of those things he and I had discussions on last year and this year regarding the Hunter. If this post is not about that at all, I apologize for jumping to conclusions. I just wanted to clarify my position in case it was being applied to me.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 6/6/2021
Posts: 326
|
FlyingArrow wrote:Udorian84 wrote:Cassus fett wrote:
Just to confirm this. In a moment of serendipity, spryguy1981 and I have posted almost identical Lost Tribe squads exactly a week apart. The only difference being a single unique which changed the last filler piece we each selected. Now I'm fairly certain spry didn't copy me. Like Flying Arrow said, sometimes there's only so many ways you can build a squad when you're trying to build it a certain way.
I am a fairly smart person. This is not a discussion on whether or not a random coincidence occurred, it didn't. The squads were copied 100% even down to the map that was chosen. They were copied with the intent to A) learn the squad themselves and/or B) share the squad with a competitor so that they had a better chance to beat that squad as well. Which is 100% fine. It was just shocking to me. Now that I know, it is no problem. I didn't play Udorian and didn't finalize my squad until less than an hour before the tournament, so I'm sure I'm not involved here at all. So take my comments as a neutral party. A and B are both perfectly valid reasons to choose a squad for a practice game. The only issue would be if it's a squad that was shared in confidence. Otherwise, you're just guessing at what's going to be played anyway. Are you sure those squads weren't public knowledge already? The idea, to me, is that any squad used in a practice game should be in confidence, as is the way of things in other games I play or have played. They both were not squads on my radar at all. I have done lots of research of what is powerful and what people might bring and I didn't think of this squad at all. But I do not want the people revealed so I do not want to continue giving little details. I am saying that the individual played the exact squad knowing that someone else planned on playing that exact squad. It was an exact copy. The individual(s) in question broke confidence in my opinion. But it won't happen again to me. I will be much more cautious with who I practice with and things of that nature. I am sure most of you already do that anyway. At this point I am going to watch that video DarkDracul posted and get back to sharing his victory!
|
|
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member
, Moderator
Joined: 5/26/2009
Posts: 8,428
|
TimmerB123 wrote:Happily make public my 548 versions of each of the top squads this year. Bet a dime to a donut you can find an near identical duplicate (to the last 20pts of scrubs) dated several months before last week for each of them.
I'd love to see your Caedus/Barriss versions. To see if I missed any. 
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 4,729
Location: Chicago
|
FlyingArrow wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:Happily make public my 548 versions of each of the top squads this year. Bet a dime to a donut you can find an near identical duplicate (to the last 20pts of scrubs) dated several months before last week for each of them.
I'd love to see your Caedus/Barriss versions. To see if I missed any. I figured you already had all those covered, lol
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 4,729
Location: Chicago
|
The more I think about this, the more I think there are delusions of grandeur involved.
So let me get this straight, you think someone you playtested against, gave your squad to another player, who copied it and played it in the Champs, the one YOU DIDN'T EVEN PLAY IN, and you're steaming mad about it?
A) You didn't have the idea first. No matter what idea it was, you didn't invent it.
B) You have zero right to complain about a squad of yours being stolen in an event you didn't even play in
C) I would think that would be a really dumb move as a player, to "steal" a squad that another player playtested against?
"Psst - hey buddy, I just playtested against this squad. You should steal it and play it. I'm not going to but you should"
"Great, I'm sure to win with it then, I'll do it"
Ridiculous
I’m sorry if this seems harsh, but it’s the truth.
|
|
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member
, Moderator
Joined: 5/8/2008
Posts: 2,220
Location: East Coast
|
Just watched the recap of the champ game. Great game by both sides!!!
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 6/10/2010
Posts: 756
Location: The Shadowlands of Kashyyyk
|
TimmerB123 wrote:The more I think about this, the more I think there are delusions of grandeur involved.
So let me get this straight, you think someone you playtested against, gave your squad to another player, who copied it and played it in the Champs, the one YOU DIDN'T EVEN PLAY IN, and you're steaming mad about it?
A) You didn't have the idea first. No matter what idea it was, you didn't invent it.
B) You have zero right to complain about a squad of yours being stolen in an event you didn't even play in
C) I would think that would be a really dumb move as a player, to "steal" a squad that another player playtested against?
"Psst - hey buddy, I just playtested against this squad. You should steal it and play it. I'm not going to but you should"
"Great, I'm sure to win with it then, I'll do it"
Ridiculous
I’m sorry if this seems harsh, but it’s the truth. +1 The anger (?) here baffles me. I recently got out of Star Wars Destiny and let me tell you, deck stealing wasn't only a thing. It was expected. Especially at a tourney. If you finish your game early you basically immediately got up and went to scope out the other tables while talking about your game. You couldn't copy other peoples' decks then and there but you can be blasted sure people were noting down other good decks to show up with next time. Probably card for card too. Shee this kind of thing used to happen at the SWM locals too. Fact is if you play test at all someone is going to blab. Not even maliciously either, it'll just be, "Hey I PT with this guy and he's bringing a wicked variant of Nom Bombs. You should watch out for it." If you truly think someone stole your squad, then you should take it as a compliment that you built something worth copying.
|
|
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member
, Moderator
Joined: 5/8/2008
Posts: 2,220
Location: East Coast
|
Time to move the "squad mirroring" discussion to the Squad Builder's portion of the forums.
Let's keep this thread for the reason it was created...VassalCon Champs!
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 10/14/2008
Posts: 1,410
Location: Chokio, MN
|
I enjoyed watching the recap. Thanks for posting it DarkDracul! its hard to counter the Nightsisters when your outactivated. In my game versus DD in the semi-finals it was a very close game and he outactivated me which forced me to use my squads insane movement to take risks (such as chasing down a Nightsister hunter who hadn't activated in round 1 before she could). Yeah it cost me my Embo, but it let me take down one of the 2 Hunters being ran and set me up to take some shots at Assaj who was the one who took out Embo. The movement of Embo forced Assaj to get out of line of sight of her fellow nightsisters which is what i expected. To me it was worth the risk and made the game much closer. In the end it came down to a difference of score being 10pts when time ran out and DD got gambit, a credit to Dark Draculs squad having some serious survivability (he healed up a Mother Talzin who i had brought down to 10hp with Talia for instance).That was such a back and forth game and was really fun! DarkDracul is a world class player and I'm really happy to see him be the champion this year. He ran his squad very well and beat a lot of really good teams and players to get to the finals. This years Championship was awesome! I was glad to finally get the chance to compete in it, and it was a great experience. Hopefully in years to come we can do a VassalCon series of tournaments again? Count me in if we do! 
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 5/3/2014
Posts: 2,098
|
That video was fun to watch! Great game and great play!
In other news mira was totally not a problem.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 6/23/2010
Posts: 3,562
Location: The Hutt, New Zealand
|
I couldn't make the NZ Champs because I was on vacation, but I helped Ian get practice for it. He came 3rd with a very similar squad to DarkDracul's Jabba/Assaj squad- we just used the one FlyingArrow made.
Playing a bunch of games against it, I came to the conclusion that it was very difficult to beat if you didn't either out-activate it or have CE suppression.
|
|
|
Guest |