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Balance Committee, please consider the OR Options
jen'ari
Posted: Tuesday, August 17, 2021 2:08:40 PM
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@timmerb

You are talking about a total restart to the game.
You know how i know?
Because there have been very few pieces impact the meta at all that have come out.

Who wants to do 10 damage 3 times when they can attack for 30 damage each?

The game already has everything it needs and doesn't need a plethora of other things.

I am 100% for making a 70 point Vader that says "any piece that costs less than 20 automatically fails to hit this character." but no one wants to do that. I mean Han Solo walks in and blasts Vader, who simply raises his hand and doesnt take a bit of damage.

We just need people to be willing to say screw it this piece should not be hit by a battle droid. Imyourhuckaberry brings up a massively good point.
You didn't need defensive capabilities when you couldn't be hit. You didn't need saves.

THE BIGGEST PROBLEM WITH THE GAME is attack ratings.

You start making pieces with high defense and it helps so much.
Problem: Boba gets to a 20 attack very very easily. So your 65 point Mace gets hit with everything except a 1.... while in cover Boba needs a 6 to hit.

Boba should be hitting roughly 1 out of 3 attacks against a higher cost jedi imo.
Give jedi "ranged duelist: This character gets +4 defense against enemies with nonmelee attacks"

This puts Mace Windu 65 points at a 26 and a 30 in cover. Now Boba needs a 10 to hit. Roughly 50/50. 1st round he hits 1 x next round he hits 2x. 3 times in 2 activations is a ton better than 5/6 or 6/6.
_______________________

A brand new onslaught of new abilities is lame, not fun, and will be bad for the game in every way possible. Especially when it changes how the game is played. Using things that are already in play and well known is much much better.

Damage Reduction 10 is already in the game. Just use it more. Beskar 6 is already in the game. Shields and Advanced Shields. There is NO reason to re-invent things just because you don't like saves. Just make the saves make sense. Talking about getting "creative" just do something along the lines of:
Veteran: This character's (Dark Armor, FA armor, Beskar, etc) automatically makes the save against non-uniques, except on natural criticals

Or

Defensive: While in cover this character's "Armor type" automatically makes the save except against natural criticals.
jen'ari
Posted: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 2:33:56 AM
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Advantageous Cover is another good ability. However, it is only used on pieces with an 18 or less Defense. Giving them a 26, which means that Boba needs a 6 to hit, Mira needs an 8, Morrigan needs an 11.

Old Han Solo, GH has a 14 attack and it is difficult to raise it. (Gregarious after getting Pilot) 14 attack is simply not high enough.

Then you have pieces come out with 10 attacks and just ruin them. Vima has an 11 and has to rely on Loner.... even though she has Synergy. Anakin Skywalker, HwnF has a 10. Aayla (29) has a 10 as well.
Sheev Palpatine (29) has a 10 attack.

Now Boba Fett has a 20 Defense....
Mira has a 17 defense.

So a Melee user like Anakin can run up to Boba, finally get adjacent and needs a 10 to hit. (15 point difference in cost). and Boba only needs a 2 to hit Mace Windu (15 point cost) from across the entire board.

Mira needs a 2 to hit Anakin, Hero with No Fear from across the board, Anakin needs a 7 to hit Mira who costs 7 less then him.

You might be saying (that is when Mira has Talon), but what is a viable attack boost to Anakin and Mace? GOWK? he is not really playable right now. GenSky for Mace? again, not really playable right now. especially against Talon himself.

DarthMaim
Posted: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 3:03:34 AM
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jen'ari wrote:
Advantageous Cover is another good ability. However, it is only used on pieces with an 18 or less Defense. Giving them a 26, which means that Boba needs a 6 to hit, Mira needs an 8, Morrigan needs an 11.

Old Han Solo, GH has a 14 attack and it is difficult to raise it. (Gregarious after getting Pilot) 14 attack is simply not high enough.

Then you have pieces come out with 10 attacks and just ruin them. Vima has an 11 and has to rely on Loner.... even though she has Synergy. Anakin Skywalker, HwnF has a 10. Aayla (29) has a 10 as well.
Sheev Palpatine (29) has a 10 attack.

Now Boba Fett has a 20 Defense....
Mira has a 17 defense.

So a Melee user like Anakin can run up to Boba, finally get adjacent and needs a 10 to hit. (15 point difference in cost). and Boba only needs a 2 to hit Mace Windu (15 point cost) from across the entire board.

Mira needs a 2 to hit Anakin, Hero with No Fear from across the board, Anakin needs a 7 to hit Mira who costs 7 less then him.

You might be saying (that is when Mira has Talon), but what is a viable attack boost to Anakin and Mace? GOWK? he is not really playable right now. GenSky for Mace? again, not really playable right now. especially against Talon himself.




Salient points Jen! I agree with a lot of the points you are making with this topic ThumpUp
DarthMaim
Posted: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 3:13:38 AM
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You should include NR ( GenCon winner 8 years ago ) and Republic ( GenCon winner 9 years ago ) in this discussion as well! All the Republics need help!!!!!!! ( "Help us Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're our only hope!" )
thereisnotry
Posted: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 1:35:10 PM
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Tim, FWIW, I actually like the damage-capping abilities. I was speaking in short-hand, but by talking about saves and save boosts I was referring to better defensive survivability. I do not think that all increased survivability needs to be save-based. I'd like to see more damage-capping and more DR/Armor/etc.

I like Jen'ari's idea of a character whose armor save always succeeds vs a lower-costed (or perhaps NU) enemy's attacks/abilities. I could definitely see that being worthwhile.

I also think Jen'ari has a very good point about Attack ratings...they have increased at a faster rate than Defense ratings have, for the most part. And then, when we had a piece designed with high Defense in mind (Jango Fett Mandalore), his Solitary +4 got nerfed to be only +2.

I'm not pretending to have the answers to all of these questions but I think that we're pointing to some important questions here.
Darth_Reignir
Posted: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 6:36:58 PM
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I generally stay out of these conversations (nowadays), but I wanted to add my 2 cents.

I like TimmerB's damage reduction suggestion. I like Jen'ari's higher defense suggestion. My concern is that these suggestions, if implemented, would be introduced in the form of a couple new characters per faction, and if that's the case, most listbuilding would come stock with said characters.
Udorian84
Posted: Thursday, August 19, 2021 3:26:27 AM
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I have been talking to a few people about all-melee squads and how they can't do it. There is tremendous power of the combo of range with high attacks is so difficult to overcome. When I came back and started looking at squads I was so flabbergasted to see no Dash Rendar. He was so good back in the day. So was Captain Rex. No Jarael either. Some of the best squads had high attacks. Kybuck had an 18 and Cad Bane had a 20 when with Thrawn. Those were the two coveted pieces in my play group. High attacks + range is better them any other combo. The game didn't have too much of that though. The separation of attack and defense ratings was very significant. I like the fast pace of the game but if people feel that the offense has outpaced the defense it definitely has. But that can be ok as well. I think finding ways foro melee to find a strong place is important. I am glad tosee the asajj piece do well. I played with her and against her and her attack rating is able to get very high and she has some speed.
jen'ari
Posted: Thursday, August 19, 2021 5:30:26 AM
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Darth_Reignir wrote:
I generally stay out of these conversations (nowadays), but I wanted to add my 2 cents.

I like TimmerB's damage reduction suggestion. I like Jen'ari's higher defense suggestion. My concern is that these suggestions, if implemented, would be introduced in the form of a couple new characters per faction, and if that's the case, most listbuilding would come stock with said characters.


I think there are ways to make it so that it reaches more people. For an example: create a republic jedi instructor piece with affinity for New Republic. Ol' Kyle Katarn had the CE that grants Lightsaber Duelist. Just make it grant Ranged Duelist to all force users with melee attack. You can make it a Camaraderie if you want to get away from Disruptive.

Man, the Imperial knights already have a decent set up I am sure there is a way to make their Dark Armor and/or Evade worth it.

I think there are ways to make it fun and inclusive. You just have to start by actually brainstorming what you want it to look like and then throw out the ideas and then look at how it affects everything.

i am sure there are some examples of a group of people that really did well being sneaky and stealthy and using cover really well so that advantageous cover makes sense.

The thing for most powerful jedi is that they can have 85% of the Special Abilities in the game as long as you are looking for it.
Advantageous Cover definitely fits tons of jedi.
You can give jedi an ability called
Guided: When this character is not activated it makes evade saves.
*or vica-versa* when this character is activated it makes the evade save. I was a huge fan of Jango Fett, I just wish that Jedi got the same treatment.
To show the power of the force. No reason for Rieekan to give ugnaught's evades and for Jedi to have the exact same save.

Making another Meditation type character that grants "guided" would be AMAZING!
I am just saying there are good options to try and keep squad building open. It is IMPERATIVE that squad building stay open.
TimmerB123
Posted: Thursday, August 19, 2021 8:45:32 AM
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Attack bonuses getting too high is a problem as well to be sure, but I think damage is the biggest category to be concerned about.

There is diminishing returns on attack bonuses. If you had a 20 attack, would you add a commander to give an additional +4 attack? Of course not.

The ceiling for diminishing returns on damage is much higher.

It is highly annoying having cheap scrubs having 16+ attack and hitting almost every time.

A lot less annoying if they hit for 10 damage.

When it gets ridiculous is when they’re hitting for 30, 40 damage.


On the flip side, high defense is a major NPE. When even your highest cost characters need to roll a 16 to hit, that’s a bit ridiculous.

Or when you hit for 20, 30 damage multiple times and have it ALL negated to zero - NPE.


What’s the solution? Damage happening more often, for lower amounts. Better for the game on both sides.


That’s why damage CAPPING is the way to go, not damage REDUCTION. yes in some circumstances they end up preventing the same amount of damage.

But, the more damage REDUCING abilities there are in the game, The more it encourages players to stack damage so some still gets through.

With damage CAPPING abilities, stacking damage is pointless.

A lot of people are putting those two in the same basket, and they really shouldn’t be.

Damage REDUCTION encourages damage stacking

Damage CAPPING discourages damage stacking
jen'ari
Posted: Thursday, August 19, 2021 9:50:05 AM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Attack bonuses getting too high is a problem as well to be sure, but I think damage is the biggest category to be concerned about.

There is diminishing returns on attack bonuses. If you had a 20 attack, would you add a commander to give an additional +4 attack? Of course not.

The ceiling for diminishing returns on damage is much higher.

It is highly annoying having cheap scrubs having 16+ attack and hitting almost every time.

A lot less annoying if they hit for 10 damage.

When it gets ridiculous is when they’re hitting for 30, 40 damage.

On the flip side, high defense is a major NPE. When even your highest cost characters need to roll a 16 to hit, that’s a bit ridiculous.

Or when you hit for 20, 30 damage multiple times and have it ALL negated to zero - NPE.

What’s the solution? Damage happening more often, for lower amounts. Better for the game on both sides.

That’s why damage CAPPING is the way to go, not damage REDUCTION. yes in some circumstances they end up preventing the same amount of damage.

But, the more damage REDUCING abilities there are in the game, The more it encourages players to stack damage so some still gets through.

With damage CAPPING abilities, stacking damage is pointless.

A lot of people are putting those two in the same basket, and they really shouldn’t be.

Damage REDUCTION encourages damage stacking

Damage CAPPING discourages damage stacking


Damage Capping comes up with really bad game play all around. It just makes damage stick when characters shouldn't be hit at all. How many clone troopers relied on their great armor to protect them? or did they rely on their wits and maneuverability.
Damage Capping takes away from the flavor of pieces as well.
Unpreventable damage from a scrub is WAY more of an NPE than getting hit and being able to do something about it so that it doesn't hit at all.

Why would I want some punk hitting me for a little bit, when he can hit me for nothing.

High defense is not an NPE if it is flavorful. It SHOULD be nigh impossible for loser characters to hit powerful characters. that is the way it should be.
Boba can hit but lowly stormtrooper can't unless they Combine Fire. Combining fire, when you think about how it translates and the visual, is when two people shoot, one misses but it gives the other person an advantage on their shot.

That is flavorful to help make a stormtrooper hit a jedi.
With that said, how do you recreate the power level of Jedi/Sith in this game? You give them control.

Lightsaber protection makes no sense to me either. Ya, i split your laser bolt in half and took half the damage?
I mean seriously, they just block them and take ZERO damage. You have to keep a connection to the "reality" of Star Wars. Illusion is an amazing ability for that reason as well. I would love to see a Sith with something like "while within an allies Presence of the Dark Side this character's illusion automatically works against characters further than 6 squares away. or something like that.

Damage reduction does encourage damage stacking, but who cares if you can't hit or the damage is negated.
What squad is going to be affected the most by damage capping? Mando's. Vindicated relies on his base 30 damage and was designed that way.
This is why damage capping is dangerous. It gives a ton of power for nothing it is not game play oriented power either. Give characters more control over if they are going to take damage or not.

That is why I say you make damage negation based on play of some sort.

High attacks have ruined the game to be honest, but Star Wars is not really a place where laser bolts and slices from lightsabers don't do a lot of damage. They hurt, a lot. The idea of someone getting hit 12 times (120 damage) and still being alive is silly to me.

If you are up against a 26 (30 in cover) defense and your highest character needs a 16 to hit, I would say your army is screwed. as it absolutely should be. There should be very few "elite groups" of non-uniques that should be able to keep up with the big boys. But lets face it... Obi-Wan Kenobi in cover should be very hard to hit. Morrigan should be hitting 1 out of 4 against that character.
thereisnotry
Posted: Thursday, August 19, 2021 10:15:29 AM
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I truly think there's room for all kinds of durability-increasing abilities (damage-prevention/avoidance/mitigation).

Evade/Soresu/Parry/etc...yep!
Damage Capping...yep!
High Defenses...yep!
Armor/DR...yep!

Frankly, I think we need more of each one of these. I don't think any of them are all-or-nothing.

Additionally, I'd like to see far more jedi/sith with Shien Style, where they can not only avoid a ranged attack, but even make it painful to make ranged attacks against them. This is one reason why I really liked the 53pt Nomi Sunrider that Jen'ari designed, because Force Barrier makes it dangerous to attack her from range.

But even more to the point, I think that we've only gotten to the point where we need stronger durability is because of damage-stacking. FWIW, I think it's a bad idea that a Jabba/Bib squad (or a Talzin/Zabba squad, etc) can give +8/+20 to most of its pieces. To be clear, I have nothing against people who build or play these squads, but I don't think it is a good trajectory for the game to keep making more of these squads possible.
DarthMaim
Posted: Thursday, August 19, 2021 10:17:50 AM
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jen'ari wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Attack bonuses getting too high is a problem as well to be sure, but I think damage is the biggest category to be concerned about.

There is diminishing returns on attack bonuses. If you had a 20 attack, would you add a commander to give an additional +4 attack? Of course not.

The ceiling for diminishing returns on damage is much higher.

It is highly annoying having cheap scrubs having 16+ attack and hitting almost every time.

A lot less annoying if they hit for 10 damage.

When it gets ridiculous is when they’re hitting for 30, 40 damage.

On the flip side, high defense is a major NPE. When even your highest cost characters need to roll a 16 to hit, that’s a bit ridiculous.

Or when you hit for 20, 30 damage multiple times and have it ALL negated to zero - NPE.

What’s the solution? Damage happening more often, for lower amounts. Better for the game on both sides.

That’s why damage CAPPING is the way to go, not damage REDUCTION. yes in some circumstances they end up preventing the same amount of damage.

But, the more damage REDUCING abilities there are in the game, The more it encourages players to stack damage so some still gets through.

With damage CAPPING abilities, stacking damage is pointless.

A lot of people are putting those two in the same basket, and they really shouldn’t be.

Damage REDUCTION encourages damage stacking

Damage CAPPING discourages damage stacking


Damage Capping comes up with really bad game play all around. It just makes damage stick when characters shouldn't be hit at all. How many clone troopers relied on their great armor to protect them? or did they rely on their wits and maneuverability.
Damage Capping takes away from the flavor of pieces as well.
Unpreventable damage from a scrub is WAY more of an NPE than getting hit and being able to do something about it so that it doesn't hit at all.

Why would I want some punk hitting me for a little bit, when he can hit me for nothing.

High defense is not an NPE if it is flavorful. It SHOULD be nigh impossible for loser characters to hit powerful characters. that is the way it should be.
Boba can hit but lowly stormtrooper can't unless they Combine Fire. Combining fire, when you think about how it translates and the visual, is when two people shoot, one misses but it gives the other person an advantage on their shot.

That is flavorful to help make a stormtrooper hit a jedi.
With that said, how do you recreate the power level of Jedi/Sith in this game? You give them control.

Lightsaber protection makes no sense to me either. Ya, i split your laser bolt in half and took half the damage?
I mean seriously, they just block them and take ZERO damage. You have to keep a connection to the "reality" of Star Wars. Illusion is an amazing ability for that reason as well. I would love to see a Sith with something like "while within an allies Presence of the Dark Side this character's illusion automatically works against characters further than 6 squares away. or something like that.

Damage reduction does encourage damage stacking, but who cares if you can't hit or the damage is negated.
What squad is going to be affected the most by damage capping? Mando's. Vindicated relies on his base 30 damage and was designed that way.
This is why damage capping is dangerous. It gives a ton of power for nothing it is not game play oriented power either. Give characters more control over if they are going to take damage or not.

That is why I say you make damage negation based on play of some sort.

High attacks have ruined the game to be honest, but Star Wars is not really a place where laser bolts and slices from lightsabers don't do a lot of damage. They hurt, a lot. The idea of someone getting hit 12 times (120 damage) and still being alive is silly to me.

If you are up against a 26 (30 in cover) defense and your highest character needs a 16 to hit, I would say your army is screwed. as it absolutely should be. There should be very few "elite groups" of non-uniques that should be able to keep up with the big boys. But lets face it... Obi-Wan Kenobi in cover should be very hard to hit. Morrigan should be hitting 1 out of 4 against that character.


+1.

Agree with all your points Jen!
DarthMaim
Posted: Thursday, August 19, 2021 10:22:25 AM
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thereisnotry wrote:
I truly think there's room for all kinds of durability-increasing abilities (damage-prevention/avoidance/mitigation).

Evade/Soresu/Parry/etc...yep!
Damage Capping...yep!
High Defenses...yep!
Armor/DR...yep!

Frankly, I think we need more of each one of these. I don't think any of them are all-or-nothing.

Additionally, I'd like to see far more jedi/sith with Shien Style, where they can not only avoid a ranged attack, but even make it painful to make ranged attacks against them. This is one reason why I really liked the 53pt Nomi Sunrider that Jen'ari designed, because Force Barrier makes it dangerous to attack her from range.

But even more to the point, I think that we've only gotten to the point where we need stronger durability is because of damage-stacking. FWIW, I think it's a bad idea that a Jabba/Bib squad (or a Talzin/Zabba squad, etc) can give +8/+20 to most of its pieces. To be clear, I have nothing against people who build or play these squads, but I don't think it is a good trajectory for the game to keep making more of these squads possible.


+1.

Excellent points Tint!

Nomi in 2022!!!!!!!
jen'ari
Posted: Thursday, August 19, 2021 10:41:44 AM
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thereisnotry wrote:

I think it's a bad idea that a Jabba/Bib squad (or a Talzin/Zabba squad, etc) can give +8/+20 to most of its pieces. but I don't think it is a good trajectory for the game to keep making more of these squads possible.


I fully agree with this. But it happens a lot, it is just that a lot of them are not that good (Imperial knights, non unique fringe, etc) It is only a problem in a Talon/Talia or Jabba/Talia squad. I definitely think designers should quit any +8 to attack rating ever. I also think that designers should steer clear of +20 damages as well. I fully agree with that. But as far as I know the big squads that have that are fringe squads right now and it can be dealt with if designers are careful.
TimmerB123
Posted: Friday, August 20, 2021 11:07:19 AM
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thereisnotry wrote:
I truly think there's room for all kinds of durability-increasing abilities (damage-prevention/avoidance/mitigation).

Evade/Soresu/Parry/etc...yep!
Damage Capping...yep!
High Defenses...yep!
Armor/DR...yep!

Frankly, I think we need more of each one of these. I don't think any of them are all-or-nothing.



Fully agreed! I do think we should have a variety.

HOWEVER - right now, it is heavily, EXTREMELY HEAVILY outnumbered by save based abilities.

Go ahead, count up thew pieces that have save based damage negation. More than the others combined!

It is so far out of whack, that it is extreme.

Furthermore, too many designers can't think outside of the box. They just slap the same 'ol abilities on pieces over and over.


The reason I am pushing more for damage capping abilities, is because we have SO FEW. We need MORE of those, and the ones we have used more often.

That would help balance the game in the right direction.


I have repeatedly said saves have their place in our game. I never said to eliminate them. There are just far too many overall, and too many are far too consequential (jolt, dominate, etc) or all-or-nothing damage negation (Evade, soresu, LS Defense, etc).


Designers need to consciously use LESS of those (although there will still be some), and MORE damage capping abilities, to create a better balance.
jen'ari
Posted: Friday, August 20, 2021 11:59:00 AM
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TimmerB123 wrote:

Furthermore, too many designers can't think outside of the box. They just slap the same 'ol abilities on pieces over and over.

The reason I am pushing more for damage capping abilities, is because we have SO FEW. We need MORE of those, and the ones we have used more often.

That would help balance the game in the right direction.

Designers need to consciously use LESS of those (although there will still be some), and MORE damage capping abilities, to create a better balance.


Telekinesis is a newer save based ability that is extremely powerful.

We don't need "New abilities" the special abilities list has gone through the roof.
We have few damage capping abilities because they are lame.
Nothing you can do about it, just, damage negation no matter what.
So... I roll a critical with Vindicated and you take 10 damage? crazy powerful

and again, what is the basis for Lightsaber Protection? What does it represent?

What balance are you trying to achieve with damage capping abilities?
Exactly what is your goal?
To me it looks like another attempt at making your mark on the game. I do not believe that your own designer history should allow you to speak about balance or about other designers.

But pieces with lightsaber protection all stink for some reason. None of them are tier 1 pieces.
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