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"Diplomat" is bad for our game Options
TimmerB123
Posted: Monday, January 10, 2022 9:56:53 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 4,729
Location: Chicago
This is a skirmish game. Pieces are supposed to fight.


I think our game has progressed to the point where diplomats are simply bad for our game.

They REALLY hurt melee. It seems ridiculous that a 5pt piece can prevent a 100 pt piece from doing anything.



I just won my latest Spheres of Influence semi-finals game by abusing the crap out of it.


Yes, it is fully 100% legal. It is still abuse.


I blocked the path from a squad of melee monsters from attacking my characters with a single diplomat blocking the way. Then hopping back and forth with force leap. Flight/acrobatic would be even worse.

Even more abusable when you have shooters in addition to the diplomats. Exponentially abusable when you can just bring some diplomats in through reinforcements.




A possible solution short of pieces with diplomat lose diplomat?

Quote:
An adjacent enemy character may replace their turn to attack this character.



This way diplomat walls can be broken, but it isn't super easy.



I also would back:
Quote:
Diplomats cannot be added to a squad via reinforcements, reserves, bribery or any Commander Effect or Ability that allows exchange or addition of characters (Pellaeon's CE, vehicle, dismount, etc)
.

In other words - diplomats must be built into the base squad.


Aggressive Negotiations would need to be looked at as well.



Diplomats built into base squads, keeping their ability for non-adjacent enemies is fine by me.


thereisnotry
Posted: Monday, January 10, 2022 2:49:27 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/29/2008
Posts: 1,783
Location: Canada
I recall losing a game because of a Diplomat Wall. I was playing Skybuck and my opponent was playing Thrawn-swap (Cad/Arica)...normally that matchup is heavily in Yoda's favor. However, in this match Yobuck couldn't reach a single thing, while Cad obliterated my guys from safety. So yeah, 4 little Diplomats (Lobot's reinforcements) won that game for my opponent.

Also, I'm a guy who often plays melee squads--either melee-only or melee-centric.

Having said that, I think Diplomats are fine as they are. Many squads have ways to get over the wall (acrobatic, leap, flight) or just delete it (area damage, indiscriminate, etc). Additionally, it is quite difficult to keep Diplomats alive for long when they're being used in a blocking role. Yes, they can block a 1-square-wide passage or doorway...but then they're often susceptible to being sniped (even by a low-powered scrub shooter).

I think we recently addressed the way that some other characters (ghosts, etc) interact with the Diplomat SA, and that's probably enough.
TimmerB123
Posted: Thursday, January 13, 2022 1:17:07 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 4,729
Location: Chicago
Analyzing the issue further, to me the issue is not the attacking/targeting restrictions. I think there are valid reasons for some characters to have these.

The issue is when they get used as walls.

Remember when mouse droids were being abused this way? Diminutive really helped quite a bit.

Now Diminutive obviously would not work for all (or even most) diplomats. However, a similar mechanic where you can walk past them would be a very good step in the right direction.


Hard to attack/target is ok, as long as they cannot block movement.



Ooooh - I've got it - give them Displacement!

Quote:
Displacement (Enemy characters may end their movement in this character's space. If an enemy character ends their movement in this character's space, place this character in a legal space within 2 squares; if no legal space is available this character is defeated.)
kobayashimaru
Posted: Friday, January 14, 2022 12:20:42 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 8/26/2011
Posts: 915
An old 'strategy droid" whirrs in the scrapyard...
overhearing the conversation of people in the junkshop,
the old clone wars era relic comes to life.
It might be just a spontaneous emission from an over-built vocabulator,
but, perhaps some may find it of use.




Quote:
I just won my latest Spheres of Influence semi-finals game by abusing the crap out of it.

First, Congratulations on your win. BlooMilk
Thankyou for the earnestness on this and several "negative play experiences".
Diplomat is quite an asymmetric win factor to games, much as "Override" was in the original pre-VSet Era.
Door Gimmick Squads etc... where, people could just Gambit Camp and TKO, that kinda thing...
(If that is reminiscent of prior threads on the subject of Diplomat etc,
that's because that's a stance I've taken toward Diplomat for some time)

Quote:
Analyzing the issue further, to me the issue is not the attacking/targeting restrictions.
I think there are valid reasons for some characters to have these.
The issue is when they get used as walls.
Remember when mouse droids were being abused this way? Diminutive really helped quite a bit.

Upon reflection of the Wayback Machine/ Web Archival...
I'd have to agree with that prerogative BigGrin

If only Diplomat were like a "call of juarez" 'duel" / 'like a mental battle between Diplomat",
so as, it functioned more like Sniper, it made the piece with Diplomat have to attack the other piece with Diplomat if it could...
something more like Mercenary or Sniper, and less of a "Temporary Wall that Blocks Line Of Site like Door Gimmick Squads".
Which only weighted targetting priority or like Force Alter, was a way to make attacks less likely to succeed
(thereby forcing you to use more ranged attacks at Diplomat or close to melee etc).

I am also reminded of prior discussions with Surf_Rider56 etc,
about what SWMinis is, and may not be,
about the difference between the Star Wars Role Playing Game and other boardgame rules frameworks
and the 'simplicity" of SWMinis...



Quote:
I think we recently addressed the way that some other characters (ghosts, etc) interact with the Diplomat SA, and that's probably enough.

Yeah, that does go a long way to preventing the "Door Override Gimmick" levels of
asymmetric mismatch for the avg squad composition at tournament etc.

While it's not possible to counter all possible combinatorics of squads you might face at a tournament,
it's a disproportionate P(Win) vs P(Wildcard Mismatch) probabilities of win/loss at squad mismatch like that,
much like certain Glass Cannon squads which performed better than they should have
against Activation Control / Out-Activation Opportunist Squads.
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