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Does one cancel the other out? They both say “immediately” on defeat but Chant requires a save. They also both specify setting up in the defeated character’s square. How does this play?
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
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Rulebook: Simultaneous Effects: If several effects happen at the same time, play them out one after the other. Usually it doesn’t matter what order these effects happen in. If it does matter, use the following rules.
Player’s Choice: If several effects apply to one player’s character or characters, that player determines the order. ***************************************************************************************
The player who controls the defeated Nightsister sets the order of play.
If they opt for Rakghoul Disease first, a Rakghoul character is placed in the square where the defeated Nightsister was. In this scenario, rolling for Chant of Resurrection becomes irrelevant because there's no vacant square to fulfill the special ability condition.
Alternatively, if the player chooses Chant of Resurrection first and fails the roll, a Rakghoul character occupies the empty square previously held by the defeated Nightsister. On the other hand, if the roll succeeds, a non-living Nightsister appears in the square, making it impossible to meet the Rakghoul Disease condition.
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Rank: Moderator Groups: Member
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Joined: 4/30/2017 Posts: 956 Location: Lower Hutt, New Zealand
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The rules committee is going to discuss this. My first impression was that this interaction involves characters and abilities from multiple players, who both have the ability to bring in a new character simultaneously; the effects are not really applying to one player's character because adding the zombie doesn't affect the character that was defeated. So the acting player (the one who defeated the Nightsister) would go first. I would also assume based on other past rulings that whoever went second would still get to add their character, it would just set up in the nearest legal square instead.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
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gandalfthegreatestwizard wrote:The rules committee is going to discuss this. My first impression was that this interaction involves characters and abilities from multiple players, who both have the ability to bring in a new character simultaneously; the effects are not really applying to one player's character because adding the zombie doesn't affect the character that was defeated. So the acting player (the one who defeated the Nightsister) would go first. I would also assume based on other past rulings that whoever went second would still get to add their character, it would just set up in the nearest legal square instead. Chant of Resurrection affects the Nightsister character. The Nightsister must make a Save roll to turn into a zombie or not. Old Daka's 2nd CE even allows a Nightsister to reroll a Chant of Resurrection Save adding +4 to the result. Rakghoul Disease affects the Nightsister character. The Nightsister must make a Save roll to avoid damage and if defeated will be turned into a Rakghoul. Rules about setting up in the nearest legal square usually apply to (e.g. transported) characters returning to the battle map or are written specifically into the ability.
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Rank: Moderator Groups: Member
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Neither Chant of Resurrection nor Rakghoul Disease "turns" one character into another, strictly speaking. Both of them say that when a specific character is defeated, and is removed from the board, you get to add a different, new character to your squad in the square formerly occupied by the defeated character. (It is true that Rakghoul Disease does affect the original character in that it deals an extra +10 damage which can be avoided with a save of 11. But the other part of Rakghoul Disease does not affect the original character before or after it is defeated.) As for Chant of Resurrection, it seems like the character rolling the save would be Old Daka (or Merrin) based on how the ability is worded. A defeated character doesn't typically roll saves.
I'm not aware of a single ability that adds a character to your squad where you wouldn't get to add them because the specified square(s) is taken. Immediate Reserves works like this if all the adjacent squares are occupied (though this is not written specifically into the text of the ability). With some abilities, like Placed Order, it is in the glossary. Frozen in Carbonite, Force Essence, and so forth, the consistent ruling is "Place it as near as possible."
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
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Regrettably, our rules experts were not super actively involved during designing or playtesting. Instead, they magically appear like Rakghouls to impose their interpretations after the fact. At the very least, the Rules Committee should consider the designers' intent when making their rulings. The designers intended Old Daka's +4 reroll CE to help with the Chant of Resurrection save roll.
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Rank: Moderator Groups: Member
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To be clear, the above is not a ruling. There just doesn't seem to be anything in the text of Chant of Resurrection to indicate that the defeated Nightsister makes the save. Defeated characters don't act in that way as far as I'm aware. ("Zombie" CEs and Avoid Defeat etc are a little different because they are resolved before the character is removed/defeated.)
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
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This is a fascinating discussion in all honesty, thanks for the input guys. My understanding (and correct me if it went over my head in places; I also realize this isn't an official ruling), is that if it were to play out where the person who goes second can add their character too (Zombie and Rakghoul), that strict interpretation of the rules precludes the rerolling of the Chant save using the Old Daka CE. However, there is a designer intent oversight there as Chant was intended to work with the CE? Is that right?
Just for the sake of feedback "on the ground", the way we played it was to set up the second piece in the nearest legal square because we were just playing a casual game and thought it would be less fun if one side just didn't get their piece. We also did interpret the Old Daka CE as helping with Chant.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
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gandalfthegreatestwizard wrote:To be clear, the above is not a ruling. There just doesn't seem to be anything in the text of Chant of Resurrection to indicate that the defeated Nightsister makes the save. Defeated characters don't act in that way as far as I'm aware. ("Zombie" CEs and Avoid Defeat etc are a little different because they are resolved before the character is removed/defeated.) There's plenty to indicate that the defeated Nightsister is intended to make the save roll. Old Daka's Witches' Orb SA says Nightsisters cannot be prevented from spending Force points to reroll Chant of Resurrection saves. The Chant of Resurrection text should indeed be more clear that it's the defeated Nightsister making the save. However, anyone who has played against Deathshots has seen defeated characters acting like this plenty. You are defeated before you leave the map. RotS 14 Mon Mothma Commander Effect Followers within 6 squares can make 1 immediate attack at +10 Damage when they are defeated. JFO 5 Merrin, Nightsister of Dathomir & CaR 34 Old DakaChant of Resurrection (Force 2, replaces turn: For the rest of the skirmish, whenever a living Nightsister ally is defeated, with a save of 11, you can immediately add a non-living Nightsister to your squad) While I think the defeat of 1 character resulting in the addition of 2 new characters is asinine. The rules committee can do whatever they feel appropriate with the Rakghouls vs Chant of Resurrection interaction. I'm more concerned with Chant of Ressurection, Witches' Orb, and Old Daka's CE working as intended.
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Rank: Moderator Groups: Member
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DarkDracul wrote:There's plenty to indicate that the defeated Nightsister is intended to make the save roll. Old Daka's Witches' Orb SA says Nightsisters cannot be prevented from spending Force points to reroll Chant of Resurrection saves. True, just- as I specified- nothing in Chant of Resurrection itself, only in abilities that came into existence a set later. Though Witches' Orb could just apply to Daka and Merrin rerolling the save, and that would still make sense. DarkDracul wrote:However, anyone who has played against Deathshots has seen defeated characters acting like this plenty. You are defeated before you leave the map. That's true- I spoke somewhat imprecisely. What I meant is that a character defeated *and* removed from the board doesn't make save rolls, as far as I am aware. That's what it would have to be, since otherwise the defeated Nightsister would still be in the square when you "immediately" place the Zombie (in step 13 of the resolving effects guide). DarkDracul wrote:While I think the defeat of 1 character resulting in the addition of 2 new characters is asinine. The rules committee can do whatever they feel appropriate with the Rakghouls vs Chant of Resurrection interaction. I'm more concerned with Chant of Ressurection, Witches' Orb, and Old Daka's CE working as intended. And the rules committee takes that into account. If we think there's a way of making sense of the wording that accords with designer intent, then we go with that. If going with designer intent contradicts some other gamerule or how all other similar abilities work, then it gets more complicated.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
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Makes sense. Hopefully, a glossary addition could clear up who makes the Chant save.
The Rakghoul vs Nightsister thing is a weird interaction I wouldn't expect to see often. Best of luck to our Rules Committee as they attempt to untangle that mess.
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Rank: Moderator Groups: Member
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To answer the first question of this thread- the rules committee has decided that the player whose Rakghoul defeated a Nightsister, as the acting player, would "go first" and add a new Rakghoul in the defeated character's square, and then the Nightsister player, if they had succeeded on the save roll (which they technically should have rolled before the Rakghoul was placed, but this won't matter), would add a nonliving Nightsister in the nearest legal square (if there are several equally close you choose among them). (And, in the edge case of defeating a Large or Huge character, you would both be able to add them in the defeated character's space, in the same order.)
To solve problems about Chant of Resurrection being an unclearly worded ability, the rules committee has agreed to edit the glossary entry of the ability to make clear that the defeated Nightsister makes the save when defeated (i.e. step 13 of resolving effects) and then you place the nonliving Nightsister "immediately" after removing the defeated character from the board (step 14) rather than immediately after making the save.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
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Sounds good
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