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Randy wrote:https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Darth_Cognus
Darth Cognus
For me Darth Cognus has been an NPE for a while. Even before Tulak. The combination of Evade and Parry is bad enough, but when mixed with the Doctrine of Fear special ability, she may as well have Soresu Style Mastery. The Distraction added on that makes it worse.
IMO Doctrine of Fear is one of those abilities that should be contained to Tarkin and his cronies. It is in reference to a specific manifesto created by Tarkin and submitted to the Emperor for a potential policy moving forward also know as "Tarkin Doctrine". I would not consider giving Mother's Sacrifice to Bail, or Han's Echo to Revan. From a purely "Thematic" stand point I don't see it fitting on someone who lived a thousand years before the Doctrine of Fear was even written. It is on a number of other characters, and I disagree with it being on them as well. My big question is, with that change does that make Darth Bane Tulak's bestie?
Mamma T and the Hunters
I am not in favor of removing the rapport from Talzin. There have been some designs since here creation that would be significantly impacted from this change. I can see the cost being increased to compensate, or Plasma Bolt being reduced to a 2. Overall I don't see a need for a change. The cloak is maybe the most difficult thing to play around, but many Force Users are capable of moving and dealing 60+ damage in a single activation. They won a World Championship in a squad that is no longer playable. We have seen them used, but they are falling short of the domination that they are accused of.
Tulak Hord, Lord of Hate
I have played against this guy potentially more than any other person. Is it fun? No. Is it broken? I don't believe so. It does require a significant effort to take him down but there are counters to him. It is not a character that just anyone can pick up and use effectively. He still requires some proficiency. Initially we saw "the squad" emerge from several players, but this year we saw very little of it. I won't name any names, but there are some up and coming characters that have already been released that I see as a bigger problem for the game that not one person seems to be complaining about even though they are pushing the envelope as much or more.
Plasma Bolt -2 for non-uniques fixes the NSHs in my opinion with no other changes needed. PB -4 is on Han and Chewbacca, and as Uniques, I'm good with that. NSHs having it with the access to multiple attack boosts (whole different subject) is wackadoodle
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In the Case of SWMC vs Tulak Hord, I think the problem lies in his cost. As much like Jabba, once created, other Characters that may not have been an issue (Imperial Agent for one) then became an issue. Personally I think Tulak is way undercost. Probably should be in the 52-54 range. He is BY FAR the most powerful playable Sith character in 1 v 1 combat. My opinion of course
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thereisnotry wrote:Some people despise Tulak entirely and don't want to have to face him at all. But that gets into a discussion about why he was developed in the first place.
I'll let Bryan talk more about it, but when he and I spoke about it during the idea/brainstorming stage, he said he wanted to make a Sith piece that both had and provided some defensive durability. At the time, Zannah was the only tanky Sith piece and she was almost never used. He wanted a tanky Sith piece that was worth using, and I think he nailed it. Tulak is such a tactically-rich piece that he quickly became my favorite piece in the game.
Whenever we're talking about tanky characters, I always point to the issue of (still increasing) damage output. Characters are regularly attacking for 40dmg per hit. Most of the time, these are shooters who are either cloaked or who duck back out of LOS after making multiple heavy attacks. I've been pretty vocal on many occasions about how this damage-stacking is harming the game, and yet nothing has been done to limit it or turn it back. (I recognize that this is a complicated issue that can't be easily fixed with a floor rules change or some other approach.)
Regardless of how complicated the issue is, the higher the damage output rises, the tankier the tanks need to be. If not, then they cease to be tanks, and they simply become pin-cushions that can take a few more pins before they fall apart. My point is that if we have high damage output, then we need tankier tanks. If we could find a way to drop the damage out put or find a way to limit damage-stacking, then I would agree that Tulak (and perhaps other tanks too) might need a nerf. But until then, I really don't think Tulak is broken or needs a nerf.
I have said this all along. We continue to reduce the amount of defense pieces have, and call hard abilities NPEs, but don't have a lot to say when a non-unique can get 24 attack and 40 damage, Greater Mobile Double twinning
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Caedus wrote:In the Case of SWMC vs Tulak Hord, I think the problem lies in his cost. As much like Jabba, once created, other Characters that may not have been an issue (Imperial Agent for one) then became an issue. Personally I think Tulak is way undercost. Probably should be in the 52-54 range. He is BY FAR the most powerful playable Sith character in 1 v 1 combat. My opinion of course I totally agree with you that he is way undercosted. I challenge anyone to list a mini that does as much as he does at 42 pts!
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DarthMaim wrote:Caedus wrote:In the Case of SWMC vs Tulak Hord, I think the problem lies in his cost. As much like Jabba, once created, other Characters that may not have been an issue (Imperial Agent for one) then became an issue. Personally I think Tulak is way undercost. Probably should be in the 52-54 range. He is BY FAR the most powerful playable Sith character in 1 v 1 combat. My opinion of course I totally agree with you that he is way undercosted. I challenge anyone to list a mini that does as much as he does at 42 pts! 
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Overley28 wrote:DarthMaim wrote:Caedus wrote:In the Case of SWMC vs Tulak Hord, I think the problem lies in his cost. As much like Jabba, once created, other Characters that may not have been an issue (Imperial Agent for one) then became an issue. Personally I think Tulak is way undercost. Probably should be in the 52-54 range. He is BY FAR the most powerful playable Sith character in 1 v 1 combat. My opinion of course I totally agree with you that he is way undercosted. I challenge anyone to list a mini that does as much as he does at 42 pts!
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Lots of characters are more under cost than Tulak Hord.  While most characters are up to 5 points undercost, it’s not uncommon to be over 10 points under cost. Often (but not always) the higher-powered competitive ones. Tulak Hord is about 7 to 8 points undercost and well within that range. More factors affect a piece’s competitiveness than merely cost. Squad synergies, overall effectiveness, and weakness within a given meta play a large role. Although only 1 was asked for, I will give two examples—Mira of Nar Shaddaa and Vader of Lothal. 42 Tulak Hord’s base stats are worth 35.5 (VR Power -2)+(Hitpoints 140/10)+(DEF 21-12)/2)+(ATK 14)+(Dam 20/10-1)*5 = 35.5 His SA are worth around 11 points and CEs 3 points.. -1 Unique, 0 Darth, -1 Melee Attack, 1 Distraction, .5 Jar'Kai Style, 1 Melee Duelist, 1 Sith Reflexes, 2 Soresu Style Mastery, .5 Unstoppable, 0 Force 3, 1 Force Renewal 1, 2 Master of the Force 2, 1 Lightsaber Throw, 1 Sith Hatred, 1 Sith Rage, 1 Teleport, 1 CE1, 2 CE2, = 14 35.5+14= 49.5 (7.5 undercost) 28 Mira of Nar Shaddaa base stats are worth 22.5 (VR Power -2)+(Hitpoints 70/10)+(DEF 17-12)/2)+(ATK 10)+(Dam 20/10-1)*5 = 22.5 Her SA are worth around 14 points.. (some designers have Satchel worth 5pts) -1 Unique, 0 Mandalorian, 2 Twin Attack, 1 Mobile Attack, 1 Agile, 1 Bounty Hunter +4, 1 Explosives Expert, 1 Grenades 20, 2 Overload, 3 Rigged Detonators, 2 Satchel Charge = 14 22.5+14= 36.5 (8.5 undercost) 45 Darth Vader of Lothal base stats are worth 38 (VR Power -2)+(Hitpoints 140/10)+(DEF 22-12)/2)+(ATK 14)+(Dam 20/10-1)*5 = 38 His SA are worth around 18 points.. -1 Unique, -1 Melee Attack, 2 Double Attack, 2 Twin Attack, 1.5 Speed 8, 5 Battle Ready (Imperial), 1.5 Duel, 1 Force-Attuned Armor, 1 Ranged Defense Expert +2, -2 Rival (non-Trooper commanders w/o Force), 2 Shien Style, Force 3, 1 Force Renewal 1, 2 Master of the Force 2, 2 Surprise Attack, 1 Surprise Move, = 18 38+18= 56 (11 undercost) Mira and Vader of Lothal have racked up more championships and regional wins than Tulak Hord’s wildest dreams. If it’s perfectly fine for Mira to be the best thing since sliced bread and for Vader to ram your backfield like it’s his personal playground, then Tulak babysitting a struggling Sith faction shouldn’t ruffle your feathers.
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It’s funny how people worry about pieces like Tulak and Nightsisters—pieces that many players, myself included, struggled to use effectively for over 2 years. Then, two of the greatest players in the game win relatively small tournaments with them, and it’s a major crisis.
Take Fringe Nightsister Hunters: Laura, Tim, Jason, Lillian, and I all tried them with mediocre results. Finally, Jason—the guy who’s won with every faction—took Hunters to victory at the 2023 Chicago Regional. He beat a Tulak Hord squad in a seven-player tournament.
Tulak had just debuted, and as a Sith fan, I was thrilled to try my new championship piece. Sith have always struggled competitively, so I designed Tulak to give them a fighting chance. Ironically, Sith Triumvirate already outpaced Tulak as the stronger squad, especially against melee Force users, but Tulak is more versatile for squad-building.
My excitement quickly faded. I lost a close match to Greg’s Tulak squad (thanks, dice rolls), then got obliterated by Randy’s SpiderMando & TalonK squad. Talon bubbled me, Spider grabbed me, and I was helpless—a humiliating experience. Tulak didn’t perform well in other games either, leaving me to wonder if my "championship piece" was a complete failure.
Then came 2023 GenCon. Suddenly, Tulak was everywhere—3 players ran him, including returning veteran Deri and newcomers from Wisconsin. I didn’t make finals, but hearing players rave about how fun Tulak games were made it worth it. The Wisconsin players even snagged 3rd and 4th place with their Tulak squads!
At Vassal Con 2023, Tulak again had three pilots but got destroyed by Tim’s Imperials and Sith Triumvirate. Nightsisters were nowhere to be seen, and Tulak squads continued to underperform. Meanwhile, I managed to beat Jason’s SpiderMando squad with YodaMotO!
2024 Ohio Tournament: 10 players, Tulak squads placed 4th and 8th
The brand-new Jawa squad won. No one complained about Tulak or Nightsisters.
2024 Indiana Regional: 4 players, 1 Tulak squad that I beat with the brand new RevanPK squad.
2024 NZ Nationals: 9 players, 1 Tulak squad placing 4th. The new Hera & Void Jumpers won.
2024 GenCon US Nationals: 1 Tulak player out of 13 players.
Tulak went winless for over 2 years despite multiple players giving him a shot. Trevor bearly edged out my RevanPK squad—just one dice roll made the difference. Then the most decorated player in the game’s history (thereisnotry), after a year's worth of practice, finally secured a win with Tulak... against a freshman-year Jawa squad.
By the 2024 Vassal World Championship, Tulak didn’t even show up. After years of losing, most players were ready to counter him, and the meta moved on. SpiderMando & Talon dominated again.
So it's perfectly fine for Sith Triumvirate, SuperRevanPK, Hera-Jumpers, and even Jawas to win in their debut year. But somehow, we’re still talking about Tulak Hord? The loudest complaints coming from people who didn’t even play in many tournaments if at all. “Raise his cost! Lower his defense!” People need to chill. Power creep will catch up to Tulak like it does to every piece. He’s strong, sure, but far from broken. Tulak has one win. One.
The hype is far bigger than the might.
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At the risk of sounding self righteous, I think it's important to remember that the Balance Committee is not a "change things I don't like to play against" committee. It's mandate is to prevent or address things that are too dominant and therefore constricting the meta. The ability of certain squad types to compete, even if you wish you didn't have to deal with them, is actually the sign of a healthy meta.
This game has always involved deciding what you don't want to lose to and designing your squad and practice to counter it. That's only a problem if the counters are so specialized that they aren't generally competitive. That isn't the case with these pieces.
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It was already done above.
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I know this isn't what the thread is focusing on but nerf ABM please
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TheBlooMilkGods wrote:I know this isn't what the thread is focusing on but nerf ABM please That's why we have the suggestion thread. I'm not sure ABM could or should be changed at this point. Thanks for bringing the conversation over here.
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Tulak is a straight-up icon—no shot he needs any sort of change. His whole kit is reasonable unless you don't know how to strategize and can only YOLO into every game expecting to win. First off, his stat sheet slaps harder than a warm glass of blue milk. Like, not even OP; just accurate for who he is: THEE ancient Sith legend, the OG lightsaber god. You telling me some mid-tier character is gonna stand toe-to-toe with him? NAHH, that’s the whole point. Maybe trying practicing instead of nerfing the GOAT incarnate. Also, are you forgetting what he brings to Sith squads? *Chef’s kiss*. It’s not like he’s breaking the meta or anything—he just makes the game spicy. Plus, the lore checks out. The man was BUILT DIFFERENT in the Star Wars universe, so why shouldn’t he be just as cracked in the game too? I mean, errata-ing him would be like turning Anakin into a stormtrooper—make it make sense. TL;DR: Tulak Hord errata would be a hard L for the game. Let the Sith Lord cook. 
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Grimlyn_ wrote:Tulak is a straight-up icon—no shot he needs any sort of change. His whole kit is reasonable unless you don't know how to strategize and can only YOLO into every game expecting to win. First off, his stat sheet slaps harder than a warm glass of blue milk. Like, not even OP; just accurate for who he is: THEE ancient Sith legend, the OG lightsaber god. You telling me some mid-tier character is gonna stand toe-to-toe with him? NAHH, that’s the whole point. Maybe trying practicing instead of nerfing the GOAT incarnate. Also, are you forgetting what he brings to Sith squads? *Chef’s kiss*. It’s not like he’s breaking the meta or anything—he just makes the game spicy. Plus, the lore checks out. The man was BUILT DIFFERENT in the Star Wars universe, so why shouldn’t he be just as cracked in the game too? I mean, errata-ing him would be like turning Anakin into a stormtrooper—make it make sense. TL;DR: Tulak Hord errata would be a hard L for the game. Let the Sith Lord cook.  straight gas.
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UrbanShmi wrote:At the risk of sounding self righteous, I think it's important to remember that the Balance Committee is not a "change things I don't like to play against" committee. It's mandate is to prevent or address things that are too dominant and therefore constricting the meta. The ability of certain squad types to compete, even if you wish you didn't have to deal with them, is actually the sign of a healthy meta.
This game has always involved deciding what you don't want to lose to and designing your squad and practice to counter it. That's only a problem if the counters are so specialized that they aren't generally competitive. That isn't the case with these pieces. This right here. There are a variety of good squads that are capable of getting into the top chair with the right pilot and tournament meta. Full disclosure... I played against all 3 of these... Quote:Then came 2023 GenCon. Suddenly, Tulak was everywhere—3 players ran him, including returning veteran Deri and newcomers from Wisconsin. I didn’t make finals, but hearing players rave about how fun Tulak games were made it worth it. The Wisconsin players even snagged 3rd and 4th place with their Tulak squads! I played Storm Commandos and won 2 of the 3 matches. Was it fun? No. It was more exciting than playing against super stealth and ABM.
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Grimlyn_ wrote:Tulak is a straight-up icon—no shot he needs any sort of change. His whole kit is reasonable unless you don't know how to strategize and can only YOLO into every game expecting to win. First off, his stat sheet slaps harder than a warm glass of blue milk. Like, not even OP; just accurate for who he is: THEE ancient Sith legend, the OG lightsaber god. You telling me some mid-tier character is gonna stand toe-to-toe with him? NAHH, that’s the whole point. Maybe trying practicing instead of nerfing the GOAT incarnate. Also, are you forgetting what he brings to Sith squads? *Chef’s kiss*. It’s not like he’s breaking the meta or anything—he just makes the game spicy. Plus, the lore checks out. The man was BUILT DIFFERENT in the Star Wars universe, so why shouldn’t he be just as cracked in the game too? I mean, errata-ing him would be like turning Anakin into a stormtrooper—make it make sense. TL;DR: Tulak Hord errata would be a hard L for the game. Let the Sith Lord cook. I reckon this is fair so maybe increase his point cost would help as it wont take anything away from him but will make him more balanced
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SpudZ wrote:Grimlyn_ wrote:Tulak is a straight-up icon—no shot he needs any sort of change. His whole kit is reasonable unless you don't know how to strategize and can only YOLO into every game expecting to win. First off, his stat sheet slaps harder than a warm glass of blue milk. Like, not even OP; just accurate for who he is: THEE ancient Sith legend, the OG lightsaber god. You telling me some mid-tier character is gonna stand toe-to-toe with him? NAHH, that’s the whole point. Maybe trying practicing instead of nerfing the GOAT incarnate. Also, are you forgetting what he brings to Sith squads? *Chef’s kiss*. It’s not like he’s breaking the meta or anything—he just makes the game spicy. Plus, the lore checks out. The man was BUILT DIFFERENT in the Star Wars universe, so why shouldn’t he be just as cracked in the game too? I mean, errata-ing him would be like turning Anakin into a stormtrooper—make it make sense. TL;DR: Tulak Hord errata would be a hard L for the game. Let the Sith Lord cook. I reckon this is fair so maybe increase his point cost would help as it wont take anything away from him but will make him more balanced That would be an L for sith as a faction 
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