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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Rigged Detonators:
Characters, enemies and allies alike, who occupy a square in or adjacent to low objects automatically fail saves against this character’s Grenades, Mines, and Missiles special abilities.
Are characters with Beskar'gam and Crab armor etc. still able to reduce the damage, or do they fail these saves as well?
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They auto-fail those as well.
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I thought there was a recent change to RD, so that the victims only failed the Nades/Mines/Missiles save, but could still roll armor/beskar normally. Am I confusing that with something else?
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Rank: Moderator
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The change in 2021 was that Rigged Detonators only affects saves against the character's Grenades, Mines and Missiles and no longer affects saves to avoid or reduce damage from their regular attacks. I looked up the post to find the date on the ruling, and it seems that Bryan and the other members of the balance committee thought the change meant- and intended that- Beskar'gam and Vonduun Crab Armor saves (etc) would no longer automatically be failed. So you're not confused- that was what they said. I'm scratching my head a bit here because the wording change doesn't say that or even imply it. Saves against abilities includes saves to reduce damage from those abilities, just like saves against attacks includes saves to reduce damage from attacks. (If this were not true then the old version of Rigged Detonators would not have made you auto-fail armour saves! That part of the wording is the same before and after.) I wonder if the rules committee okayed the intent for the new wording back in 2021- maybe it wasn't looked at closely.
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That seems weird, is everyone on the same page about this?
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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I recall that ALL saves, even reducing damage, were auto-fail to RD's ( I remember games against Vader of Lothal - him auto-failing Shien and his armor save). I always thought the only change made was removing it from attacks, which would imply no changes to special abilities  .
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gandalfthegreatestwizard wrote:The change in 2021 was that Rigged Detonators only affects saves against the character's Grenades, Mines and Missiles and no longer affects saves to avoid or reduce damage from their regular attacks. I looked up the post to find the date on the ruling, and it seems that Bryan and the other members of the balance committee thought the change meant- and intended that- Beskar'gam and Vonduun Crab Armor saves (etc) would no longer automatically be failed. So you're not confused- that was what they said. I'm scratching my head a bit here because the wording change doesn't say that or even imply it. Saves against abilities includes saves to reduce damage from those abilities, just like saves against attacks includes saves to reduce damage from attacks. (If this were not true then the old version of Rigged Detonators would not have made you auto-fail armour saves! That part of the wording is the same before and after.) I wonder if the rules committee okayed the intent for the new wording back in 2021- maybe it wasn't looked at closely. Responding to the bolded part here. This is news to me. I'm not saying that it shouldn't work this way, but simply that I never knew that it works this way. Is there somewhere in the rules or in the glossary where it clarifies this? I remember being part of those very conversations back in the day, and the discussed intent behind this ruling change was specifically so that armor/beskargam/etc could still make a difference against rigged detonators.
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A comparable example is what you can and can't do to "respond" to the abilities and attacks of a character with Force Immunity ("against this character's abilities" is roughly equivalent to "responding to this character's abilities"). NickName's official FAQ addresses this: Quote:Q: Force Immunity says enemies can't spend Force points to "respond to" that character's attacks and abilities. What exactly counts as "responding to" an attack or ability?
A: "Responding to" includes using a Force power to avoid the damage, rerolling a save that helps reduce or avoid damage, rerolling a save to prevent an effect, or using a Force power that triggers when hit. Thus, Lightsaber Block, Lightsaber Deflect, and so forth cannot be used against an enemy with Force Immunity. An enemy with Evade or Dark Armor cannot spend a Force point to reroll a failed save against a hit, nor can it cannot spend a Force point to reroll a failed save for Plaeryin Bol or Thud Bug. An enemy cannot use Lightsaber Riposte to attack the character who hit him. Abilities that trigger when a character is defeated are not considered responding to the character's attacks or abilities, so a defeated character could reroll an Avoid Defeat save, or use Eternal Hatred for example. Along the same lines, I think it is clear that a Beskar'gam save is "against"="responding to" the Grenades/Missiles/Mines ability and thus would be automatically failed if Rigged Detonators is active. Intent is an important consideration (and it's clear that the intent was, as you say, to allow armour saves against RD). On the other hand it's even more important to keep the rules consistent across the board, so the rules for "against/responding to" have to be the same in this case as for Force Immunity/Suppressive Fire/Overwhelming Force/etc.
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There has been a fair bit of confusion in the community around what it means to "take damage" and how that interacts with abilities like RD. A lot of us operated under the assumption that the act of taking damage was separate from the ability or attack that caused it.
When we updated Rigged Detonators, the intent was to narrow its effect strictly to the saves against Grenades, Mines, and Missiles—nothing more. That was the understanding we were all working under, and no one from the Rules Committee or the broader community flagged any issues with that interpretation at the time.
It wasn’t until Tulak with Sith Reflexes got printed (which triggers when damaged by an enemy) that the Rules Team started pointing out interactions like that not getting around Stifling Attacks or how Grenades would immediately teleport with him, etc.—and that led to a whole cascade of weird edge cases.
At the end of the day, the Rules Team tells us how the rules work—we trust them on that and let them do their thing. I’ll bring this back to the Balance Committee and we’ll talk through whether we want to revise the wording or just let it stand as-is for now.
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gandalfthegreatestwizard,
Guest,
NoffyD |