I would like to know this as well. No complaining or anything, but what warrants a piece to not count as points, and another to count. even the difference between the Lobots. I just never heard the reasoning behind it. clarify please :)

Thats sounds reasonable. Nice job explaining the difference between reserves and reinforcements Sithborg

Go back and listen to the SHNN shows from the fall of 2010. We talked about the design work many times. Just for fun, I will bring this particular topic up tonight on the SHNN in about 30 minutes :).

and does a rak earn points for your opponent when they defeat it when you bring it with Reserves?

yes I know this...which is my point...but every Rak that Rak makes doesn't earn you anything...so you have to track the costed Rak vs. the free Raks...

it actually does if you read my thread that got locked.

The difference is the cost of Lobot (27point) or Jabba(50 point) have the cost of the free figures they allow you to bring in built into them…so it’s understandable that what they bring in are free points. They’re meant to be a swiss army piece for your squad so you can make minor adjustments to your squad to try and counter something your opponent has. “Oh you have stealth; I’ll bring in this piece with “it’s a Trap.””

15 point Lobot and other Reserve pieces are luck of the draw pieces who allow you to bring in whatever beat sticks/shooters/counter pieces you can…to try and tie up your opponent or support your main pieces…these pieces are hoped for, but never really part of squad design… unless you’re running something like a Kaz who has a way better chance of getting reserves due to the multiple different initiative numbers he can roll to earn it. These cost points, IMO, because they are excess points being added to your squad base cost. A 200 point squad who rolled an 11 with Lobot now just became a 230 point squad.

A 200 point reinforcement squad with a 27 point Lobot is still essentially 200 points even with his 20 point Swiss army ability… because those points are built into his cost. If you wanted the 15 points Lobot pieces to be free he’d have to cost 45 points…so that his chanced roll pieces are built into his cost.

Now Celeste is different…I don’t see a point cost built into her to factor for an infinitely point based creature who can make more of itself…if the cost is built in, then she should start with a Rak. She doesn’t. so it’s not like Reinforcements. And it doesn’t work like Reserves either…since there is no roll involved. And even the Rak has to make attacks to defeat a piece to make more of itself (which is a equivalent to a save or specified initiative number).

What her FP is (IMO), is sort of like reserves, in that it brings in pieces (as Bill said, that a player is really NOT counting on; his words not mine; and would be a pain to track the costed Rak vs. the free Raks it makes because of this (again his words not mine)), but with some slightly different circumstances… one is there is no rolling involved. just be within 6 squares of and automatically defeat a character who has 20 hit points or less left on it when you spend 2 force points…and earn a free Rak that can now (with Celeste’s CE) Ambush and drop a 60hp (or less) figure (not counting the extra possible damage from Rak Disease ) and create another Rak (which is free too)…plus it doesn’t matter at that point if you kill the Rak she just made because you have now been tied up fighting something that was free to your opponent anyways.

With the availability of movement breakers (Doombot, swap squads, Troop Carts, Skiffs, Mount) any talk of well you have to get her in position to do it, is moot IMO, especially with her being Fringe. She has access to any and all of that…

And the point out of all of this is simple there is no real down side to her ability and what she brings in…only positives…

Again my problem is NOT with Autodamage…I can live with autodamge…Heck I love me some flamethrower.

It’s the autodamage/defeat AND automatic addition of a new character to my opponents squad, that I will earn no points for, can make more of itself, and not a single die roll was involved… just a *poof* oh look your uggies is now a Rakghoul.

Which is why I said I think (IMO) why something should have been added to this.
either points for the initial Rak made.
A save for the Rak creation (still keep the autodamage) or
when the creating character is defeated all the Sith Alchemy creatures are automatically defeated (like a force spirit)
or change the ability to adjacent
or replace turn…

well to be honest I don't rightly agree with Rak Disease either, in that the new Raks earn no points for your opponent...and I never said using Sith Alc2 is the best option for Celeste...I am talking about this force power and the thought of newer versions of it coming out...but it is hard to not talk/mention her when you talk about SA2 when she is the only figure to have it right now. and I haven’t mentioned her cost other than to say the cost of her is not inclusive of the idea of reinforcements or reserves...

and although I mention the damage of SA2...it was only in the attempt to illustrate that removing my 20hp figure form the board is not the issue either...

also when looking at Rakghoul Disease there is a difference between it and SA2...attack rolls...the Rak has to attack AND defeat the piece it turns...

First, much better discussion. Keep from twisting my words this time and I won't have to ask for a lock :)

You are correct. Those are differences. It's even more different from reserves. A Special Ability causing defeat is much closer in approximation to an attack than it is to rolling a specific reserve number. As for you not liking the Rak Dis precedent, that's all well and good, but you can't deny its existence. And therein lies the basic problem.

I'll give a comparable example. Many people (maybe even most) would change the lightsaber +10 precedent to become a melee attack if we could. It's perhaps the most egregious error in WotC's game. But like Rak Dis, we have followed it with the V-sets. And we will continue to use Lightsaber +10 when it's an appropriate part of a given character, even though very few (if any) of the designers agrees with that particular ruling.

As for the other stuff, you really really need to do more than one play test (which I have confirmed is what this is all about). One test proves nothing. Further, your group has not yet even reported the results of that one play test. I don't believe that character to be broken at all, but certainly if there are issues with it, then they will be addressed by PT results. You can discuss it until you are blue in the face, but as you can see, you are fighting an uphill fight without your best weapons. Show us the problem via PT. I hope you can tell by now, that a public discussion of Celeste Morne is going to get you no where.

"Clearer" for who? As written, I understand 98% of all the rulings, and how they got to them. There are very few I don't agree with the logic to get there, but they are available to find.

And the game will depend on returning gamers a lot more now, so changing rules is a bad way to keep returning gamers.