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Mace Windu,Legacy of The LightSide Options
StarKiller97
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 3:57:30 PM
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What really ticks me off is the fact that Mace LOTLS is way to powerfull for his abilitys. He can freaken take out the Lavilithon, Exar Kunn, and Celest Morne all by himself. He should be the price of Grand Master Luke (115), because he is so powerfull. The fact is who ever Mace wants to go after with r2d2 to help he will kill that person. Mace Windu is to powerfull and should be banned the dude is just to powerfull. Who ever made this person should have atleast made him alot more expensive.Scared Cursing Cursing Cursing Cursing Angry Angry ThumbDown ThumbDown Cursing Cursing
FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 4:05:27 PM
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He's only too powerful when he scores critical hits. His average damage output on par with Mara Jade, Jedi or Lord Vader.
Deus Sol
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 4:05:35 PM
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My advice: instead of griping about a piece being OP, do something about it. Same thing happened with Bastilla; instead of figuring out how to counter her, people went straight to griping. Mace is really, really easy to kill if you just shoot him. Better yet, lock a door. Bring accurate shot and pop doombot in the face. It's true that he's good - but I've had games where I haven't rolled a single crit for him. But he's definitely not OP.
Sithborg
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 4:08:02 PM
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And around we go again...

Keep track of when the crits happen (when killing a piece, critting when they only have 10-20 HP remaining really doesn't matter).

Seperating your pieces has been a basic strategy since RS. It is key to limiting Flurry's potential.

Use the counters. Block, Defense, Parry, Makashi are great in limiting the damage output. Durge and Saesee Tiin, JM are especially tough on Mace, keeping his damage output very low.
TheHutts
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 4:19:47 PM
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Sithborg wrote:
Use the counters. Block, Defense, Parry, Makashi are great in limiting the damage output. Durge and Saesee Tiin, JM are especially tough on Mace, keeping his damage output very low.


Force Suppression is a good counter too. You don't want to deflect shots when it costs 3 per pop.

He didn't figure very highly at the only Regional that's been played since he came out - one Mace team did come in at 6th, I think.

He's an extreme piece, I think - he can destroy most other beatsticks, but struggles against squads with good shooters, especially a swarm of cheap shooters where he can only kill one at a time.

I think he is better than almost every other 60+ beatstick, but that's mostly because the other beatsticks in his cost range are kind of useless; there have been some good ones in the v-sets like Revan Sith Lord, Corran Horn JM, and Vandar, but later WotC pieces like Jedi Master Kit Fisto and Grand Master Luke Skywalker just weren't good enough for how much they costed.
StarKiller97
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 4:20:17 PM
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The shooting might help but he still has Reflect and MOT2, plus he has renewal 2 so getting him to little force points is kinda of hard. And using parry and other stuff to counter as long as he crits he can only block or parry so manny times and Mace can be also very hard to hit if he has gowk with him since that what people like to do. He is way to cheap for what he can do its bullcrap.
Sithborg
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 4:40:41 PM
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What happens when he doesn't crit. My number one question when this piece comes up is "When did Mace crit?". I think it happened at one time at MI regionals that it was a major game winning occurence. Which would've been mitigated by the simple strategy of keeping seperated and not ganging up adjacent to Mace.

And really, if you whole arguement is about the Mace player is rolling 17+, using a high defence as a reason why the opponent can hit him is a bit silly.
Darthbane53
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 5:10:36 PM
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First question, have you played him yet? Initially most everyone thought he was insanely overpowers, including me. In fact right as I opened the box I built a squad with him, and straight up got slaughter by the maul from that set which is around 10 points LESS. In fact I dont think I have played a game where he has survived. One of the biggest things I learned from looking at the V-sets is dont judge until you play. Because paper is quite different than which it comes down to dice.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 5:31:09 PM
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Darthbane53 wrote:
First question, have you played him yet? Initially most everyone thought he was insanely overpowers, including me. In fact right as I opened the box I built a squad with him, and straight up got slaughter by the maul from that set which is around 10 points LESS. In fact I dont think I have played a game where he has survived. One of the biggest things I learned from looking at the V-sets is dont judge until you play. Because paper is quite different than which it comes down to dice.




lol, that maul killing mace is just sad....... force absorb the sith rage and with Gowk, that maul needs a 10 to hit if he has loner, and a 14 if maul has an ally with 6, not to great of odds there to even hit Mace, I have used mace multiple times against that Maul and never once has that Maul come close to killing that Mace. Combine Mace with all the movement he has access to and chances are that maul will not even have his loner bonus when he attacks mace.
qvos
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 6:48:11 PM
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Deaths_Baine wrote:
Darthbane53 wrote:
First question, have you played him yet? Initially most everyone thought he was insanely overpowers, including me. In fact right as I opened the box I built a squad with him, and straight up got slaughter by the maul from that set which is around 10 points LESS. In fact I dont think I have played a game where he has survived. One of the biggest things I learned from looking at the V-sets is dont judge until you play. Because paper is quite different than which it comes down to dice.




lol, that maul killing mace is just sad....... force absorb the sith rage and with Gowk, that maul needs a 10 to hit if he has loner, and a 14 if maul has an ally with 6, not to great of odds there to even hit Mace, I have used mace multiple times against that Maul and never once has that Maul come close to killing that Mace. Combine Mace with all the movement he has access to and chances are that maul will not even have his loner bonus when he attacks mace.
Great Points. I love Mace, He opens up some nice options, but he is not unbeatable. Experienced players will quickly find his weak points. I do love him for going after Dodonna(doughnut) and Reikann.... I LOVE ITThumpUp ThumpUp ThumpUp It makes me HappyBlooMilk BlooMilk
urbanjedi
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 7:11:42 PM
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I beat a squad (in prep for regionals) with my echani squad. I have been playing around with a mace squad myself and he is by no means unbeatable. He is really good but shooters have a pretty easy time with him and reflect does cost 2 fps so he can't do it that many times before he is out. Also since he is in Rep he gets outactivated by almost everything so while he can be a beast if he rolls crits, he is pretty beatable. Most vong squads can beat him with ease. Poggle bombs handle him no problem, etc, etc.
Darth_Jim
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 8:21:55 PM
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At the Wampa Stompa tournament last fall, I used Salacious Crumb to kill mace.
TheHutts
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 8:23:17 PM
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What Mace squads do you guys like best? I was looking through the squad builder last week, and found a few different archetypes at 200. I think you basically have the choice between a squad with movement breakers, where you use Mace as a hit and run weapon, or a tank squad where you load him with defense boosts and bodyguards, and charge him up the board:

Fast Squads
with General Skywalker
--Mace in the Face (7th place, 2012 Michigan Regionals)--
65 Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side
47 General Skywalker
23 Captain Panaka
23 Foul Moudama
9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid
8 Mas Amedda
8 R7 Astromech Droid
5 Spaarti Clone Trooper Demolitionist
12 Rodian Brute x4
(200pts. 12 activations)

with Yobuck
--This Party is Over--
65 Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side
51 Yoda on Kybuck
23 Captain Panaka
9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid
8 Mas Amedda
16 R7 Astromech Droid x2
10 Spaarti Clone Trooper Demolitionist x2
6 Mouse Droid x2
12 Rodian Brute x4
(200pts. 15 activations)


Tank Squads
with GOWK
--SSM, not S&M--
65 Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side
55 General Obi-Wan Kenobi
33 Captain Rex
27 Ferus Olin
9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid
5 Spaarti Clone Trooper Demolitionist
6 Ugnaught Demolitionist x2
(200pts. 8 activations)

with Flobi
--Quad Mace--
66 Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi General
65 Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side
33 Captain Rex
9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid
8 R7 Astromech Droid
10 Spaarti Clone Trooper Demolitionist x2
9 Mouse Droid x3
(200pts. 10 activations)

without Obi-Wan
--Macealor the Ultimate--
65 Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side
33 Captain Rex
25 Republic Commando Darman
24 Commander Ahsoka
13 Chagrian Mercenary Commander
11 Human Bodyguard
9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid
8 Mas Amedda
5 Salacious Crumb
5 Spaarti Clone Trooper Demolitionist
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist
(200pts. 11 activations)
Sithborg
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 9:23:42 PM
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I think LeGOWKy is a contender as well, but there is so much that can go wrong with it now that V3 is released. I like urbanshmi's squad, it is more versatile and speedy.

It just is too rough vs the new Vong squads out there. A Jedi Hunter with either Momentum or GOWK's CE makes it absolutely brutal on him, especially since he can't kill one without a crit (seriously, send one in one at a time, and you will lose maybe 2 or 3 before he dies). And if Mace becomes dominant, the tech against him will come out. I have been seriously playing around with Saesee Tiin, JM now that the Klatoonian Captain is out. Speed 8 Surprise Move, sure. Evade on a piece with Block, yes again.
DARPH NADER
Posted: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 2:37:06 AM
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Sithborg wrote:
And around we go again...


I can't help but hearing... Ladies & gentlemen, boys and girls let me draw your attention to the center ring (cue requisite music). Is Critdu powerful, of course he is in his own way but as Darth Jim mentioned above his Crumb defeated at WAMPA and my Storm Commandos with only a +10 defeated Windu twice with him reflecting etc...

The key is to get to him b4 he can store FP's up; also if your counting on "Critdu" instead of the pretty much guaranteed 60 damage via GMA, you then tempt the anger of the great diety Pareto. OMG

Then proceed in an orderly fashion to the TheHutts string, "have you ever thrown your dice in anger?" When the 20% fails to show on the D20.
Weeks
Posted: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 3:03:30 AM
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StarKiller97 wrote:
What really ticks me off is the fact that Mace LOTLS is way to powerfull for his abilitys. He can freaken take out the Lavilithon, Exar Kunn, and Celest Morne all by himself. He should be the price of Grand Master Luke (115), because he is so powerfull. The fact is who ever Mace wants to go after with r2d2 to help he will kill that person. Mace Windu is to powerfull and should be banned the dude is just to powerfull. Who ever made this person should have atleast made him alot more expensive.Scared Cursing Cursing Cursing Cursing Angry Angry ThumbDown ThumbDown Cursing Cursing


I get upset when I lose too. Instead of calling out pieces you should call out yourself. More often then not you made a play mistake that allowed him to beat you.

It's the same argument people used to make about yoda on Kybuck. "oh man yoda kills all my fodder too fast" .....ya if you don't protect your squishies yoda will run all of them over. You have to change tactics each game or youll lose. Have you ever watched a war movie? The armies that win are the ones that change strategies when something isn't working. A general doesn't say "oh man, those tanks are unfair and OP" he figures out a way to alter his plan and kill the tanks.

Force renewal 2 means mace can reflect maybe 3 shots per game, or even less if he uses force for speed or rerolls. Then he may only make 1 out of those reflects. So the strategy is simple as shoot and spread out.
qvos
Posted: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 3:32:02 AM
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Location: Detroit, Mi
DARPH NADER wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
And around we go again...


I can't help but hearing... Ladies & gentlemen, boys and girls let me draw your attention to the center ring (que requisite music). Is Critdu powerful, of course he is in his own way but as Darth Jim mentioned above his Crumb defeated at WAMPA and my Storm Commandos with only a +10 defeated Windu twice with him reflecting etc...

The key is to get to him b4 he can store FP's up; also if your counting on "Critdu" instead of the pretty much guaranteed 60 damage via GMA, you then temp the anger of the great diety Pareto. OMG

Then proceed in an orderly fashion to the TheHutts string, "have you ever thrown your dice in anger" when the 20% fails to show on the D20.
I like that name CRITdu thoughThumpUp There are times when other figs have taken out or had the potential to take out other biggies. A had Lord Vader who took out most of my opponents squad. The next game I used him, he went down like a sack of potatoes. It all depends on the dice rolls..... Live by Critdu........Die by Critdu LOL !
Hinkbert
Posted: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 5:10:51 AM
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TheHutts wrote:
What Mace squads do you guys like best? I was looking through the squad builder last week, and found a few different archetypes at 200. I think you basically have the choice between a squad with movement breakers, where you use Mace as a hit and run weapon, or a tank squad where you load him with defense boosts and bodyguards, and charge him up the board:



I think you're best off if you have a mixture of movement breakers and defense. And a bodyguard of some sort is always helpful, but balance is key. If you go one way or the other too much you may have games where you absolutely dominate, but you also increase your chance of having a terrible match up.
Weeks
Posted: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 5:50:37 AM
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Art of War 3:18

If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat.

Art of War 6:28

Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances.

I think applies to this subject prett well.
Echo24
Posted: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 7:36:21 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
His average damage output on par with Mara Jade, Jedi or Lord Vader.


I think a lot of people miss this. They get caught up in the fact that Mace's damage potential is technically infinity, but that's true of ALL characters with Flurry Attack. What is his ACTUAL average damage output?

Well, against a character with 20 defense, he has a 15% chance to miss, a 65% chance to get a normal hit, and a 20% chance to get a crit. 0.15x0=0, 0.65x20=13, 0.2x60=12, so each attack does an average of 25 damage. The problem is that that 20% chance to get a crit ALSO grants another attack, so we really need to find out the likelihood of 0 crits, 1 crit, 2 crits, etc.

The likelihood of 0 crits on 3 attacks is 0.8^3, or 51.2%. The likelihood of getting 1 crit on the first 3 attacks but then not a crit on the free attack is (0.8^3*0.2)*3 (it's 4 attacks now, 3 with the 0.8 chance to not be a crit, one with the 0.2 chance to be a crit, and there are 3 permutations that would create this result, those being 0.2*0.8*0.8*0.8, 0.8*0.2*0.8*0.8. and 0.8*0.8*0.2*0.8). That's another 30.7%. The likelihood of getting 2 crits is (0.8^3*0.2^2)*6, or 12.3%. Getting 3 crits will happen (0.8^3*0.2^3)*10 or 4.1% of the time. Getting a stunning 4 crits will happen (0.8^3*0.2*4)*15 or 1.2% of the time. That makes up for 99.5% of the rolls you'll make with Mace, so I'll stop there.

So 51.2% of the time you're getting no crits. That means that against a character with 20 defense, you're on average doing just 39 damage. That sucks. 30.7% of the time, though, you're getting one crit, which means you're doing that 39 damage plus another 60, for 99 damage. Much better. 12.3% of the time you'll average a whopping 159 damage with 2 crits, 4.1% of the time you'll be doing 219 damage, and 1.2% of the time you'll get 279 damage! Now lets multiply all that out to find the overall average.

(0.512*39)+(0.307*99)+(0.123*159)+(0.041*219)+(0.012*279)=82.245 average damage against a character with 20 defense.

Lets compare that to, say, Mara Jade Jedi.

WITH Cunning, she has a simple 15% chance to miss, 10% chance to crit, and 75% chance to hit. That's 0.15*0+0.1*40+0.75*30=26.5 damage per hit. With Lightsaber Assault she's getting 4 attacks, so 26.5*4=106 average damage with Cunning. Woah, that's way better than Mace! Of course, that requires her to be getting Cunning, and lets say she's only getting that half the time.

WITHOUT Cunning, she's got a 35% chance to miss, 10% chance to crit, and 55% chance to hit, and does less damage. So now we're looking at 0.35*0+0.1*30+0.55*20=14 damage per hit, 4 hits makes it 56 damage.

If she's getting 56 damage half the time and 106 damage half the time, that's simply 28+53=81 average damage overall. That's only 1.245 points of damage on average less than Mace, who costs a full 20 points more than her.


Now obviously there are lots of other factors to consider. Mace can spend 2 Force Points to reroll, Mara can't, which makes his number a lot better. Mace will also often be in a squad with GOWK or General Skywalker or someone like that to increase his damage output. However, Mara also realistically gets Cunning with Lightsaber Assault WAY more than half the time; I'd say that when I play her and Ganner (which I do quite often), she's getting it at least 85% of the time. There's also the issue that if Mace rolls 4 crits but is only adjacent to 1 enemy, a lot of that damage will get wasted, and there are always the other parts of the character that need to be considered: Mara has Stealth and is a shooter, both big advantages, and also has Block, while Mace has FR2 and MotF2, Absorb, Riposte, and higher Defense and HP, but he costs 20 points more, which is a whole lot of points.

Frankly, I consider Mara Jade, Jedi to be a much better piece than Mace. Yeah, Mace is powerful, but if you don't get a crit his damage output is pretty pathetic for his cost, and she's just a better bargain than him all around for 20 points less.
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