As a designer I've always wanted to keep the community involved in the process, so I'd like to ask the community at large what they think of something.

I'm working on some designs for pieces that won't be made for some time (so this is based on thoughts about very early drafts of pieces that might or might not even be made; this is mostly just me spitballing), and realize that to be even a reasonably playable piece it will have to obsolete another old piece. In general, this is a bad idea. We don't like obsoleting old pieces, we prefer boosting them up. Instead of making awesome new Storm Commandos or Echanhi Handmaidens, we made pieces that boosted those. But those pieces weren't the worst to start with; it is much harder to do something like that with a worse piece, so there is a temptation to just make a new version of the piece.

Obsoleting pieces has certainly been done before. It's obvious that the new Revan, Atton, and Carth obsoleted the old versions; who would ever play old Revan instead of new Revan? WotC did this, too; who would ever play Grievous Supreme Commander instead of GGDAC, or who would play General Kenobi instead of GOWK. But those aren't directly obsoleting something, that's just a side effect of some natural power creep as the game advances. Do you remember when the Veteran Rebel Commando came out? It costs exactly the same as the original Rebel Storm Rebel Commando, but has +10 HP, +1 Defense, +1 Attack, +10 Damage, and Mobile Attack, while not losing anything. It's a direct and deliberate upgrade, with no downside whatsoever. Like I said, this is something we like to avoid in general, but what if it's a totally awful piece like that? There were some complaints about the VRC, but it seemed that really people just liked that they got a new Commando to play with; no one was ever playing the old Rebel Commando anyway.

So say we wanted to make a new Rebel Trooper. Just vanilla Rebel Trooper from Episode IV. Say we name it the Veteran Rebel Trooper, and take the stats for the Elite Rebel Trooper and boost them to make it playable. So say we make a piece like this:

Veteran Rebel Trooper
Cost 7

HP: 20
Def: 17
Att: +7
Dam: 10

Squad Assault
Squad Cover

It costs the same, but it gets +4 Defense and the 2 Squad abilities. You would never have a reason to play the Elite Rebel Trooper again. But do you have a reason to play the Elite Rebel Trooper in the first place? It's a totally awful piece from the first set of the game. Would you miss it? Would there be an outcry about something like this?

I ask because I have what I think is a fun, neat idea for what is basically a new take on an existing mini, but the existing mini is absolutely awful (here's your one hint: it's from Rebel Storm), so it will be difficult to make it even a tier 2 piece (which is what I'm going for, I'm not taking it from totally awful to dominant tier 1, but it should make for some fun themed squads) without obsoleting the original.

What are your thoughts? Should I try to work out a way to not step on the toes of the old piece, even though it really has no place in the game as it is, or should I keep that as sacred and design around it?

see for me, although there are already not used, i could see using a commander (even a non-unique one) to give them these abillities just to trooper followers. that way it would boost some of the others also. IT would go well with lando if you made it read similar to what grees commander effect says.

To be honest, I hate the fact that the V-Sets are making so many of the older, original pieces obsolete. In an attempt to make the game more enjoyable, playable, and open, I think it's sort of killing the essence of the game; I stopped collecting the figures a while ago not only because I never had the opportunity to play them, but because new sets just kept getting released that made the previous ones obsolete. I was going to pick up the collecting again, and then I found out about the V-Sets. Now pieces that didn't technically even exist were making figures I didn't even have obsolete, so I just quit collecting altogether. I think it's great that the community is trying to keep the game alive, but I think it needs to be more careful in doing so.

I'm really not keen on things like the example you gave with Revan. I still like the old Revan better (although I do shy away from him because he takes up half a squad), and I think the new one is under-costed for its power compared to the old one. Same with Malak (although that was Wizards); same piece, but costs 3 points less and is clearly better. Adding Poggle for the Geonosian Drones? They were never playable anyway, and they still aren't on a competitive level, but now they're just plain annoying. Those are some of the poorer examples, and that's not to mention the immense amounts of power creep that have continued to be introduced into the game via the V-sets. Some pieces just need to be left well enough alone. That being said, there are definitely some pieces that I'd love to see get a total overhaul because they were never used to begin with, even before they became obsolete. Why was Mon Mothma not given Rebel affinity? Needs fixing. The Bothan Spy doesn't even have Stealth? What? How about a makeover with Cloaked (we've all played Battlefront II)? Nien Numb? Not even Pilot? That piece was pathetic and was just there to fill a spot in the set. A revamp still might not be playable either, but it'd be nice to see. Things like that. I'd also love to see more characters from the Expanded Universe as opposed to rehashing the same figures repeatedly (we don't need 13 versions of Darth Vader, and even 6 versions of Maul is pushing it). How about Dessan from JKII? Maybe some stronger Sith Reborns (Reborn Fencer?) with Imperial affinity. That's more of the direction I'd like to see the V-Sets take. Oh, and make some more figures with Suppressive Fire. It'd make taking out Jar Jar that much less of an infuriating task.

I keep editing my post and changing my mind! They really need access to a higher attack, and something like a squad ability to make them even remotely useful, and even that's probably just getting started. Vader Agent of Evil does wonders for Stormtroopers (double attack, careful shot +6) but even so, they're not that strong since they're so fragile and easy to kill - although something like that might work better for Rebels since they have access to Evade.

Most cheap attack pieces that are good have access to a gimmick like a death shot, or self-destruct, or something. It's hard to think of a 10 or 20 HP piece that's good, that functions simply as an attacker - Jawa Scavengers are decent, but they have stealth which makes them harder to pick off.



I do think you have to compare the new Revan with other good pieces - you can't just compare the two Revans with each other. IMO, old Revan is the worst piece in the game - you're overpaying by about 40 points for him.



Geonosian Drones are really strong - if they're part of a balanced squad. Having a squad that's 50% or 90% Geonosian Drones is often silly, but a handful of them can really enhance a squad. I don't like that they're 2 points, but I think they're a very usable piece.

In general, I am opposed to making older pieces obsolete. I think Rapport can be used more liberally to revive old pieces, and that every piece can be revived through Rapport. Simple evidence: at cost 1, any existing piece is broken. So somewhere between cost 1 and its current cost, any over-costed piece would have a competitive cost. (For some of the very low-cost pieces, it might not be appropriate to use the lower cost, though. For example, a piece might be over-costed at 4 but under-costed at 3.)

In the Veteran Rebel Trooper example, I would prefer to see something like this:

==
Veteran Rebel Trooper
Cost 8

HP: 20
Def: 17
Att: +7
Dam: 10

Squad Assault
Squad Cover
Mixed Squad (Characters in your squad whose names contain Trooper are treated as having the same name as each other for the purpose of special abilities whose name contains Squad.)
Rapport (Characters named Elite Rebel Trooper cost 1 less)
==

The Mixed Squad is added based partially on my dislike for pure Squad abilities in general... perhaps Rapport -2 could be used if Mixed Squad is dropped. Of course, then you make the plain Rebel Trooper obsolete, so it is tricky.


I use Elite Rebel Troopers in scenario play where we choose X points of troopers. I would not like to see them completely replaced. Similarly, I would like to see the original Rebel Commandos boosted (or Rapport'ed) by name. Something like:

Rapport (Characters named Rebel Commando cost 4 less.) OR
CE: At the beginning of the round, two allies named Rebel Commando may move up to their speed if they begin and end their moves in Low Objects. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

===
Edit: I don't mean to say use Rapport exclusively. Synergy, Camaraderie, and CEs are also good ideas to breathe life into dead pieces. I just meant that with Rapport, there is not such thing as a truly dead piece. Even Nien Nunb could be tier 1 with Rapport -10 (assuming the piece that provided the Rapport was also competitive).

There's an interesting thread about recosting here: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75862/22406721/Recosting_figs

I like the school of thought, where if old pieces get costed too low, they basically just become meat-shields:

While generally I'd rather see old pieces made better, sometimes a do-over is just necessary. I think Revan is a great example. He is much more in line with what the first Revan should have been. And while I don't think this needs to happen always, every so often I think it will be worthwile.

And I'm always up for just a different take on a character. I think the Han and Leia from S&V are a great example of that.

Also agree here. Would be neat with Riekian(no duh) with the low point cost.

Here's a bit of a guideline I use on whether or not a piece is salvageable.

Was the piece bad out the gate? These pieces are the ones that never saw play (see Dark Side Enforcer), even in fun squads.

Then there's the stuff that has been left behind by the shift of the game. The CS Jedi. Most Troopers.

In the end, I prefer a bit more indirect obsoletion. The Veteran Rebel Commando or the 501st Legion Stormtrooper are complete obsoletion. I prefer things a bit more like Boba BH. Yes, he was pretty good. But at the time, Double vs Twin was a reasonable debate. Leave a small role for the old piece, even if it is extremely niche. The reactions to the more direct obsoletions or the ones that are more murky, makes it obvious that the community doesn't really like it, even if "it's the only way they will see play".

sounds great