Two main reasons
1) To represent a different aspect of the character or a different point in their lives.
2) To have players need to make make a choice in what they build rather than just throwing the toughest pieces together.
Also we have a lot of Anakin, Vader, and Luke because for the longest time WotC was contractually obligated to have at least one of them in every set.



Because Grievious, Jedi Hunter has been a worthless piece since RotS. He had no redeeming qualities and the only way to make him viable would have been a direct boost piece, so it made more since to replace him.



4 Things:
1) The IG-86 is fringe. Frigce Pieces always cost more than their factional equivalent as they can be used with everything rather than just their faction.
2) The Sniper isn't mobile like the IG-86. Heavy Weapon is a major downside, as you first have to move into position, then wait until the next round and if you character isn't dead or you haven't lost your target, attack. Yes, Intuition alleviates some of the problems, but not all. The Sniper's still a sitting duck after it attacks.
3) Single Shot Blaster is a huge detriment as the two main Separatist commanders (Whorm and Grievious, DAC) are centered around Twin Attack
4) The Battle Droid Sniper sucked.



You're missing the point of Rival. Just like with making multiple versions of a character, it makes players choose what they want in their squad, rather then just throwing everything powerful together. The only difference is that instead of going "Which Boba should I use, Enforcer or Mercenary?", you're going "Which Commanders should I use, Thrawn or the Triumvriate?"

They are not trying to replace Thrawn. They are trying to give players more options so they don't just automatically throw Thrawn in every time.

6 doesn't seem like enough - I checked, and I found 9 Lightside Anakins - there's also an Imperial piece named Anakin Skywalker, Sith Apprentice, but it's effectively a Darth Vader. And I think almost all of them offer something different, and they don't make each other redundant much (apart from the ones from the first couple of sets, which are largely obsolete).

Anakin Skywalker, Force Spirit - the only Rebel Anakin, and the only Force Spirit.

Anakin Skywalker
Anakin Skywalker, Jedi Knight - these two are older and pretty much obsolete. Interestingly, even though they came out in consecutive sets, they're probably the two versions of Anakin that are the most similar to each other, with the Revenge of the Sith version pretty much obsoleting the Clone Strike version for only 4 more points.

Anakin Skywalker, Jedi - this guy fills a nice little niche, a cheap guy with Djem So.

Anakin Skywalker on STAP - strafe attack, twin, flight, obviously way different to any other version.

Anakin Skywalker, Chosen One - the only Anakin with Dark Temptation and Bodyguard, so quite a different version.

General Skywalker - apart from Rebel Force Spirit, the only Anakin with a CE. Obviously a very popular version.

Anakin Skywalker, Champion of Nelvaan - nice anti-melee piece. I don't think he's so competitive any more, but Djem So and twin is pretty fun, and I like him with GOWK.

Anakin Skywalker and Padmé Amidala on Reek - more of a piece for scenarios etc, but definitely different. It's a cool idea for a piece, and I wouldn't mind seeing an upgraded version sometime (although realistically, a huge without Flight is usually going to struggle).

So I think there's still room for more Anakin Skywalkers out there. Most of them bring something different to the table, and I'd be happy to see some more.



You're talking about IG-86s here, right? I was confused the first time I read it, but I completely agree with it otherwise.

I think this can sit in either forum. I don't really think it belongs in general because it is a general design argument (as the v-sets are customs) and it would be less likely to draw a flame war here than elsewhere.

There are more than 6 versions of anni for the lightside but only 6 unique ones representing what we actually know him for (vader aside). Now I know these guys are popular but why not keep bumping up the other old guys with only one version where you can find a unique niche without stomping on the old ones? Examples: San Hill, Mon Mothma (rebels, hello), Tarfful, Sly Moore, Nein Nunb (If ever a mini needed a reboot), Ackbar, Guri, Nom Anor, Mas Amedda, Bacara, Depa Billaba (great candidate for padawan), Ulic Qel-Droma, Garindan, Talon Karrde, Calo Nord, Komari Vosa, NYM, All the mandalores, I will stop now as I am not even a quarter of the way through the sets. That is 20 for a new set full of 'rares' and all of them units that can be remade without much effort because there is only one version of them and most have enough back story to out-pace bossk, and even he has 4 minis. I am not saying stop completely, just stop putting out two of the same named character we already have 3-6 of when you can put out one of the afore mentioned instead. Heck, if you have trouble thinking of a new one I will happily come up with one that is unique from the other one and doesn't step on the old one (though nunb and NYM would be a challenge to not obsolete the old one as they stunk out of the gate)

Grievous JH is bad? What? Yeah, he isn't the greatest unit but he had potential. Quad, twin with maybe a new commander that would let him get greater mobile and/or momentum? Back in business without batting an eye!!! But not anymore, now we have something 100% better, so he is permanently shoeboxed. What I am getting at is there is no mini beyond saving yet it seems some are considered that way. When you bury a mini forever in the box it is not a good thing in any game.

IG-86AD support costs 24 + 16 + 20 + 9 to get him double+twin at 13 base attack for base 30 damage. It costs the Sniper droid 24+16 to get double with 14 base attack for 40 damage. For the point difference I can put in 3 snipers vs the other squad's 1 IG-86 AND the snipers fire with relative immunity compared to the IG-86's. Head to head the snipers will win. Yes, they have more limited movement but intuition does negate the majority of the negative as you can't move more than 6 normally anyway (or move at all if you want careful shot and double attack.) If you minimize their support, they are better. If you maximize their support, they are better. Everything in-between can swing it a lot for either side but lets go standard. Commando droid for both, BDO for both, and battle droid sergeant for both. Add General Whorm L to the IG-86's and San Hill so you can out activate the opponent and get off opportunist. With that we have a 31 point difference for an extra 80 damage against targets that can take the initial 40, yet a 30 base if you get caught with your pants down, all at 17 attack if you get opp, 13 if you don't. Snipers, aside from getting 2 extra out of the gate, have a standard attack of 18 no matter the situation and deal 40 every shot. They also can't be hit by the IG-86's unless the IG's get within 6. So, squad vs squad:

39 HK-47, Assassin Droid
27 Lobot
23 Commando Droid Captain
15 Battle Droid Sergeant
70 Sniper x5
12 Gha Nachkt
8 Battle Droid Officer
6 Ugnaught Demolitionist x2

VS

39 HK-47, Assassin Droid
27 Lobot
23 Commando Droid Captain
20 General Whorm Loathsom
48 IG-86 Assassin Droid x3
15 Battle Droid Sergeant
12 Gha Nachkt
8 Battle Droid Officer
6 Ugnaught Demolitionist x2
2 Mouse Droid

I can tell you right now which would win as the snipers can out activate the IG's (or at least tie for acts) and they can fire past the inevitable mouse droid screens all while not taking hits until the ig's take out the mice and then move in to try and kill. Not to mention they have a higher attack and can fire whenever they feel like it for max damage per shot. Yeah, head to head isn't going to fly with some of you either but take these guys out for a spin vs other squads and see which wins more often than not.

Last up, the poor droid sniper, devoid of hope you say? Well, what can you do for him? Lets see, BX spotter, if it was released solely for that sniper, comes to mind. How about granting stealth with camaraderie too? Maybe careful shot? There were ways to bring the BD Sniper up to where the BX sniper is now without replacing it, point is, nobody tried.

My complaint is the inclusion of the Commando Droid Captain and the BDS in the IG-86 squad. Better to take 2 more IG-86s. They can already do 60 damage on the move with Opp/Twin. Double Attack and the +10dmg is nice, but you can't extend the +10dmg anyway and it's better to move (usually) than stand still for 2 extra shots..

Preach it brother.

The only EU books I've read are the thrawn series. Outside of that I frequently go to wookieepedia to find out who most of these guys are. Oftentimes I'll ask my wife who someone is and she will know from reading all the Eu stuff. I'd be cool with a Darth Vader or Luke in every set too. Darth Vader vs Luke IS star wars to me.

Yes. To make a short list, the following would be used before Grievious, JH:

Asajj Ventress, SA
Aurra Sing, JH
Count Dooku of Serenno
Darth Maul, CotS
Darth Maul, SI
Durge, JH
Sora Bulq

Heck, with that CE, I'd say the Wheelbike would see more play than Grievous, JH.


You also need to factor in his craptastic attack. Eight attacks won't cut it when you'll need rolls of 11+ to hit. And you also need to consider his lack of defense; All he has to defend himself is 100 HP and 19 Def, and when most units of a similar cost need 4-6+ to hit, he's not gonna last very long.

Since you said you are looking for ideas for these, here we go. Want something to challenge the always go first and stat boost in imps? How about a single person with Never tell me the odds and master tactician who does little else, costs in the mis 20's, and is cross faction? I'm sure you can find one of the imperial governors to fit that bill. That and why would somebody put in two MT's? Don't like that? How about a guy that grants a global cunning +10 and allows one unit to move before any other unit activates in a round (like the tactical droid CE). You pair him with the old standby and you got something going, but if it is a thrawn then you have some light competition for the throne. Again, key word is light competition. You should NOT be looking to replace guys with better guys, just offer alternatives to existing mini's. The +4 att +10 dam on one shot might not seem huge but pair him with a twin attacker who has speed 8 or flight or even intuition and accurate shot and you have a serious threat because of a different unit AND you can't be beaten down by the muun or another MT or never tell me the odds. Again, it isn't fabulous but it doesn't need to be and that is the point. It should open up options without being the most powerful thing in the game.

Looking for a way to keep bastila down? I am still pushing for a fringe yussal mini that has encampment and stealth/cloaked that is cheap (like 5-7 points, something to bring in with lobot). If bast comes up, lobo reinforcement some force immunity. Don't like it? How about an OR jedi version of Nihilus (before his fall) that suppresses all force abilities (enemy and allied) who also has a ce that buffs allies? Not a fan either? How about an OR jedi like Marr with disruptive that grants allies within 6 opportunist? The two won't stack well but the opp for OR jedi would be tempting enough to get her used. Still not a fan? Tough crowd. Then how about a jedi exile who acts like a yussal for opposed force powers while having the CE theft of the yammosk?

My point is, you don't have to make sweeping changes with every set. That is part of the problem right now. Every time a unit comes out it is designed to overcome another unit. Why not just offer alternatives? It won't fix the problem in one set but if you do it right it will prevent future problem children while slowly limiting the usefulness of the current ones. It is tricky but it can be done.



Now how many of those cost in grievous' price range? Asajj is one point more and for it you get +10 HP, +1 def, +2 attack and 4 fewer attacks. She has rage and stealth but even so, she isn't effected by oom9's CE's and whorm doesn't play well with her either. The rest are 9 or more points higher or sora who will see play even if the ability didn't exist.

Though I do have to ask, how would greater mobile help auura JH, Maul SI, and the wheelbike? Aurra already can move and twin everything with blaster barrage and I am blanking on anything that can give her double. Maul SI already has ambush, so while GM would be useful it is a little redundant, and the wheelbikes best feature is its ability to move 18 (20 with that one lonely fp) and attack. If it bumped some units that rarely see play then all the better but, keeping with the idea of the whole thread, you don't need to make sweeping changes, just ones that move a unit closer to the board. Yeah, I would even likely use maul CotS long before grievous JH but I would also be forced to take a long look at his +13 attack for 8 attacks before making up my mind that the tech points aren't worth it...yet. And, to me, that should be what the v-sets and most new minis should be going for.

Just remember, 4 attacks less, for 20 points cheaper. And her damage output is still only 40 less. Again, she just outshines Greivious, JH in every way. General boosts are not a great way to make bad pieces okay, since they will likely make the good pieces better.

I'm going to be honest. I'm a fan of making fun stuff. Stuff that would be tier 2 or 1.5. But I am one voice on the design team. There is a lot of compromise.

And I think you misinterpreted my meaning. You seem to be describing counters, which are easy to make. I'm looking purely into the squad building options. Sure, counters may cause something to see less play, but it is limiting squad options. Not the best way to do it, imo. How do you create alternatives in some of these factions that are so dependent on Whorm or Thrawn or Riekan or Bastilla? Rival was probably implented incorrectly in V4 with the Triumvirate. I think some doubt snuck into the minds of the designers when they were finishing up, based on some of the powercreep complaints and a LOT of discussion.

critiques are ez, but help future designs.
good design must be very hard indeed, and I for 1 applaud the effort.
rational debate and critique will help to make future v-sets even better.

thanx again Scott for all you've done

I agree that Vset pieces that obsolete older pieces should be avoided. But where you loose me is with pieces that were obsoleted by WOTC themselves. Greivious, JH or Revan were some of the worst of the worst, even when they were released. I view pieces in a tiered level. There are some pieces that are salvagable, and some very close to being playable. Some require more. And then some, aren't really worth saving, because the amount of what you would have to do to make a piece playable is far beyond what a piece should do. Luckily, there aren't that many, and most of those already have multiple versions thanks to WOTC.

And something to remember, there can be pieces that work better in some situations than others. In your Sniper vs the IG, numerically, it may seem superior. But, I can assure you, that the IG squad is still better in most situations. There are some really subtle issues with the Sniper. Restricting your movement at the beginning of the turn means you are less able to react to the opponent. It may seem superior, but I can gaurentee you, in actual play, they are not. And there are pieces that will fill different rolls.