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Quote:Darth Caedus, Sith Lord
cost-54
Hit Points 110
Defense 18
Attack 12
Damage 20
Unique, melee attack, double attack
Cunning Attack (+4 Attack and +10 Damage against an enemy who has not activated this round)
Embrace of Pain (+1 Attack and +1 Defense for every 10 points of damage currently on this character)
Makashi Style Mastery (When hit by a melee attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11. Shii-Cho, Soresu, Ataru, and Niman Style cannot be used against this character.)
Force Ascetic (Cannot spend Force points to reroll or move faster)
Affinity (Characters who's name contains Galactic Alliance may be in a squad with this character regardless of faction)
Rapport 1 (Characters who's name contains Galactic Alliance cost 1 less when in a squad with this character)
Force 2, Force Renewal 2, Master of the Force 2
Aing Ti flow walk - (Force 3: Once per round, after initiative is determined, this character can take an immediate turn. This does not count as activating the character this round.)
Lightsaber Riposte (Force 1: When hit by a melee attack, this character can make an immediate attack against that attacker)
Master Illusion - (Force 2: When hit by an attack, this character takes no damage unless the attacker makes a save of 16)
Sith Battle Manipulation - (force 3 - usable on this characters turn, sight, choose one target character within line of sight, Cadeus may move that character and all characters (enemies and allies alike) within 6 squares of the target character up to 3 spaces. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. This character cannot be moved by this force power.)
CE: Galactic Alliance followers gain +3 attack and +3 defense I read the books, I know the character, and Force Ascetic does not make sense. It made sense on the one WotC made from CotF, back when he was refusing to use the force in the part of the Yuuzhan Vong war. The following Caedus, and than the V-Set Jacen didn't have; kudos for knowing the source material. But this piece, at the apex of his of power, has Ascetic. What is the inane justification for giving him this? Obviously, I don't imagine it lowering the cost all that much, but even so giving a piece a unrelated power for the sake of lowering the cost is ridiculous. It really just limits his playability too much in my opinion.
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Plain and simple, playtesting showed that rerolls with Makashi was a little too much. In the end, which would you have rather had, Force Ascetic or no Master of the Force?
And I have a tough time seeing how much it limits his playability. Yes, he is a bit vulnerable to saves. (Especially since we handed out accurate Missiles ;) ) But in actual combat? Yeah, good luck. Melee pieces will have a tough time against Makashi, especially when he gets to 23+. Shooters have the same issue. Add in Master Illusion with Exar, DFS, and you can negate a key hit.
And honestly, I think the game has proven that rerolls, and multiple rerolls, with defensive abilities, can be a little too much.
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The main problem I ever saw with rerolls was when someone had the combination of Mettle, and MotF, and a free avoid any attack save... 2 rerolls with Makashi could be a TINY BIT annoying, but considering he's on a faction that doesn't have much in the way of board control, good grunts, stunning commander effect, etc, I don't see much of an issue.
Factions on the backboard like Sith, and Old Republic should be graded on a different scale to that of Rebels, Republic etc. I am not ignorant enough to make the claim he's bad, but to me it seems like an unnecessary addition to an otherwise perfect, albeit slightly undercosted, piece to a faction still on the comeback trail.
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Hah. Yeah, we can't exactly consider Old Republic the bottom of the barrel anymore.
And speaking of board control, well, he does provide a lot of that.
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Sithborg wrote:Hah. Yeah, we can't exactly consider Old Republic the bottom of the barrel anymore.
And speaking of board control, well, he does provide a lot of that. Sith Battle Meditation, I don't think I could have done it better myself  , I do look forward to using it often. As for the Old Republic, they definitely are more than they were back in the day, but hardly "competitive". But, you seem more sure of their status that me, so would you mind elaborating on why they are so much better now?
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DarkLordVerjal wrote:As for the Old Republic, they definitely are more than they were back in the day, but hardly "competitive". But, you seem more sure of their status that me, so would you mind elaborating on why they are so much better now? I'm not Sithborg, but Old Republic won the GenCon National Championship in 2011, and there were 2 Old Republic squads in the top 8 in the GenCon National Championship 2012. They've got a couple of great new pieces in the last set too - Satele Shan is top tier at 37 points and Bao Dur diversifies the faction a bit by working with droids. I think a lot of people regard them in the best four factions currently (along with Republic, Separatists, and Imperials). The Bastila from v-set 1 is the key piece, with Advanced Battle Meditation shutting down enemy CEs and giving a +10 damage boost, Old Republic Senators are diplomats with a great instant attack CE, Atton "Jaq" Rand and Carth Onasi Old Republic Soldier are terrific shooters, Satele Shan is an excellent melee interference piece, they have useful non-uniques like Jedi Battlemasters and Jedi Seers, and some interesting higher point Jedi like Master Kavar. They have their limitations - no movement breakers, no way to kill activations quickly - but they're still a tough faction.
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I actually really like the Covenant Consular for setting up Consular figs. If only there was another Covenant figure in this set, one to give them somethint to really tie them together...
As for Force Ascetic, again playtesting showed some worries. His tricks are extemely powerful, that we didn't want to add a very powerful defense in as well. Makashi, Master Illusion, with the option for Illusion, and Master of the Force 2 makes a very tough figure to crack.
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DarkLordVerjal wrote:
Factions on the backboard like Sith, and Old Republic should be graded on a different scale to that of Rebels, Republic etc. I am not ignorant enough to make the claim he's bad, but to me it seems like an unnecessary addition to an otherwise perfect, albeit slightly undercosted, piece to a faction still on the comeback trail.
Neither faction is on the backboard anymore. Both factions went deep into the Gen Con top 8. Sith only lost on the final due to lock out and matched favorably against Bills Skybuck build. I would've loved to see Weeks v Trevor in the final. Weeks, i think, would have had the advantage. As for the ascetic addition, that was to keep him below 60 points. Really, the guy is already heavily undercosted. Cuts through soresu, major movement, major board control. Loads of force. Without FR2 his force powers were too expensive, with FR2 and MotF2 his abilities allowed too much strength for cost. Ascetic keeps him usable but balanced. I would say the force ascetic cut at least 6-7 points off him, if not more. Several renditions were tested and this one was considered the most balanced, referenced all previous Jacen designs while bringing something very unique to the table.
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I appreciate the answers guys, though I don't like the ascetic I do understand the situation required it.
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DarkLordVerjal wrote:I appreciate the answers guys, though I don't like the ascetic I do understand the situation required it. Once you start playing this piece, you will see a very good reason he has it. I've played him a ton in playtesting and I absolutely love this peice. He is my favorite mini in star Wars mini's period! I don't mind that he has ascetic since there has to be some sort of drawback to his awesome set of powers and abilities, otherwise he'd be way to good. Right now my favorite squad to play him in is my Caedus of Immortality squad. He is a tank and can do a ton of damage also if you play him right.
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Wait, the option for Illusion? That's not on the stats.
(And yes, I'm aware that you have intimate knowledge of his stats, being a designer. I'm assuming that the stats here are wrong).
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corranhorn wrote:Wait, the option for Illusion? That's not on the stats.
(And yes, I'm aware that you have intimate knowledge of his stats, being a designer. I'm assuming that the stats here are wrong). Marka Ragnos, Force Spirit gives Illusion 1. He is optional.
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corranhorn wrote:Wait, the option for Illusion? That's not on the stats.
(And yes, I'm aware that you have intimate knowledge of his stats, being a designer. I'm assuming that the stats here are wrong). He can get Illusion from one of the Dark Force Spirits (which one escapes me at the moment.) Ninja'd with better info
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Oh, makes sense.
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fingersandteeth wrote:[quote=DarkLordVerjal]Both factions went deep into the Gen Con top 8. Sith only lost on the final due to lock out and matched favorably against Bills Skybuck build.
I would've loved to see Weeks v Trevor in the final. Weeks, i think, would have had the advantage. Yeah, we do have to do something in the floor rules about lockout wins, but that's another topic. Actually, Weeks and I did play each other (in round 5), and I beat him with a 3pt win. Thought Bomb doesn't hurt Mice or R2, and both GOWK (Mettle, Motf2) and Mace (lucky roll) made their save 16s when Kaan blew up. Everyone else was staying back, out of TB range. After Kaan blew up to minimal effect, the match was largely decided. Weeks said later that he should've brought Momaw to mow down my mice, but if he had Momaw then I just would've kept them back as well, giving him just Obi and Mace and R2 (immune) to hit. So it was actually a more difficult matchup for him than it would seem. And yeah, back on topic: Zack (Welcome back! I haven't seen you forever!), I'm glad you can see the gameplay need for Force Ascetic, even if it doesn't mesh with his character at that point as well as we would like. I hope you enjoy playing him, since he's your favorite piece.
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thereisnotry wrote:
And yeah, back on topic: Zack (Welcome back! I haven't seen you forever!), I'm glad you can see the gameplay need for Force Ascetic, even if it doesn't mesh with his character at that point as well as we would like. I hope you enjoy playing him, since he's your favorite piece.
Hah, glad to see you still kickin' butt and takin' names. I been around for a while plotting my diabolical return... =) Ya, Caedus is pretty awesome, favorite Star Wars character next to Bane(epic set so unepic). I NEED this set to be out and printable so I can start building every team for the next foreseeable months around him. O=)
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thereisnotry wrote:
Actually, Weeks and I did play each other (in round 5), and I beat him with a 3pt win. Thought Bomb doesn't hurt Mice or R2, and both GOWK (Mettle, Motf2) and Mace (lucky roll) made their save 16s when Kaan blew up. Everyone else was staying back, out of TB range. After Kaan blew up to minimal effect, the match was largely decided. Weeks said later that he should've brought Momaw to mow down my mice, but if he had Momaw then I just would've kept them back as well, giving him just Obi and Mace and R2 (immune) to hit. So it was actually a more difficult matchup for him than it would seem.
I stand corrected, i didn't realize you guys played. Curiously, i wasn't even thinking about Kaan as being the major threat against your squad, just a finisher. I certainly wouldn't try to lead with him as his Bomb seems to be the perfect finish for a wounded GOWK (Dr Evasan was my plan for an auto damage finish). I imagine i would mainly use a Revan/fodder swap and MT to isolate R2, lobot and Fodder, followed by Mace and finally GowK. Obviously, sounds easier than is probably is but it was purely the MT/swap that i felt would prove enough of an advantage to swing the tide. Just proves, styles make fights.
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fingersandteeth wrote:thereisnotry wrote:
Actually, Weeks and I did play each other (in round 5), and I beat him with a 3pt win. Thought Bomb doesn't hurt Mice or R2, and both GOWK (Mettle, Motf2) and Mace (lucky roll) made their save 16s when Kaan blew up. Everyone else was staying back, out of TB range. After Kaan blew up to minimal effect, the match was largely decided. Weeks said later that he should've brought Momaw to mow down my mice, but if he had Momaw then I just would've kept them back as well, giving him just Obi and Mace and R2 (immune) to hit. So it was actually a more difficult matchup for him than it would seem.
I stand corrected, i didn't realize you guys played. Curiously, i wasn't even thinking about Kaan as being the major threat against your squad, just a finisher. I certainly wouldn't try to lead with him as his Bomb seems to be the perfect finish for a wounded GOWK (Dr Evasan was my plan for an auto damage finish). I imagine i would mainly use a Revan/fodder swap and MT to isolate R2, lobot and Fodder, followed by Mace and finally GowK. Obviously, sounds easier than is probably is but it was purely the MT/swap that i felt would prove enough of an advantage to swing the tide. Just proves, styles make fights. Yes, it definitely is an interesting matchup. By far the biggest danger IMHO was Atton, doing up to 100dmg...but both Mace and GOWK have ways of handling him (SSM or insane Def). As for style, I'm no expert on Revan/Kaan/Jaq, but from what I understood Kaan was almost always the first strike, with Revan and Atton finishing up. At least, that's how I remember Weeks playing it whenever I saw him. It was an excellent squad (and excellent player) so I'm not surprised he made it to the semifinals...and imho he SHOULD have been in the finals. I still think it's a 50/50 matchup or so, maybe 60/40 in Mace's favor at most. Reinforcement guesses are important in this one, because if I think he's taking Momaw then I might choose Evazan to heal dmg from the thought bomb...but if not, then Mice are the way to go. Likewise, the Revan player has to choose between Momaw and swap fodder.
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thereisnotry wrote:fingersandteeth wrote:thereisnotry wrote:
Actually, Weeks and I did play each other (in round 5), and I beat him with a 3pt win. Thought Bomb doesn't hurt Mice or R2, and both GOWK (Mettle, Motf2) and Mace (lucky roll) made their save 16s when Kaan blew up. Everyone else was staying back, out of TB range. After Kaan blew up to minimal effect, the match was largely decided. Weeks said later that he should've brought Momaw to mow down my mice, but if he had Momaw then I just would've kept them back as well, giving him just Obi and Mace and R2 (immune) to hit. So it was actually a more difficult matchup for him than it would seem.
I stand corrected, i didn't realize you guys played. Curiously, i wasn't even thinking about Kaan as being the major threat against your squad, just a finisher. I certainly wouldn't try to lead with him as his Bomb seems to be the perfect finish for a wounded GOWK (Dr Evasan was my plan for an auto damage finish). I imagine i would mainly use a Revan/fodder swap and MT to isolate R2, lobot and Fodder, followed by Mace and finally GowK. Obviously, sounds easier than is probably is but it was purely the MT/swap that i felt would prove enough of an advantage to swing the tide. Just proves, styles make fights. Yes, it definitely is an interesting matchup. By far the biggest danger IMHO was Atton, doing up to 100dmg...but both Mace and GOWK have ways of handling him (SSM or insane Def). As for style, I'm no expert on Revan/Kaan/Jaq, but from what I understood Kaan was almost always the first strike, with Revan and Atton finishing up. At least, that's how I remember Weeks playing it whenever I saw him. It was an excellent squad (and excellent player) so I'm not surprised he made it to the semifinals...and imho he SHOULD have been in the finals. I still think it's a 50/50 matchup or so, maybe 60/40 in Mace's favor at most. Reinforcement guesses are important in this one, because if I think he's taking Momaw then I might choose Evazan to heal dmg from the thought bomb...but if not, then Mice are the way to go. Likewise, the Revan player has to choose between Momaw and swap fodder. Would have been fun.......would have. Sadly we will never know how Weeks v Tint 2 (thirilla for vanilla) would have gone thanks to bills lock-out ftw strategy.
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DarkLordVerjal wrote:thereisnotry wrote:
And yeah, back on topic: Zack (Welcome back! I haven't seen you forever!), I'm glad you can see the gameplay need for Force Ascetic, even if it doesn't mesh with his character at that point as well as we would like. I hope you enjoy playing him, since he's your favorite piece.
Hah, glad to see you still kickin' butt and takin' names. I been around for a while plotting my diabolical return... =) Ya, Caedus is pretty awesome, favorite Star Wars character next to Bane(epic set so unepic). I NEED this set to be out and printable so I can start building every team for the next foreseeable months around him. O=) Same, Jacen is one of my favorite characters and I'm really looking forward playing with the New Caedus. Haha FlyingArrow pointed out that I use Jacen, JK A LOT; I have a feeling Cadeus, SL will be the same way. There are certain characters I like so much that we could get a new version in every single set and I'd be thrilled. Jacen is one of them.
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