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I've had a theory for a while that a lot of the powercreep in Star Wars Miniatures happened during the first 3-4 years of its existence (2004-early 2008), and the subsequent period (from Clone Wars onwards, including the v-sets) has actually been relatively flat. A lot of the good pieces from Legacy of the Force, Knights of the Old Republic, and onwards into the 40 piece sets are still strong in competitive type games now.
Anyway, to test this, I went through and looked at all the pieces used in the GenCon Championship top 8 squads from 2008, 2010, and 2012. I used these three years as I could find full squad lists for them easily and they're evenly spaced out. I removed the following pieces from my lists:
- really common fringe pieces - eg Lobot, Ugnaught Demolitionists, Mouse Droids, Rodian Brutes - they're probably on just about every squad in the list and are going to throw the results as they're older pieces. I did include bigger, more interesting pieces like IG-86s (although there was only one on the list) and Echani Handmaidens.
- I ignored multiples for fodder pieces - otherwise Darth Nader's Naboo Troopers would throw off the results!
So, the results:
2008 Championship
Pieces from 2004: 1
Pieces from 2005: 2
Pieces from 2006: 6
Pieces from 2007: 14
Pieces from 2008: 9
2010 Championship
Pieces from 2004: 1
Pieces from 2005: 3
Pieces from 2006: 5
Pieces from 2007: 8
Pieces from 2008: 22
Pieces from 2009: 10
Pieces from 2010: 3
2012 Championship
Pieces from 2004: 0
Pieces from 2005: 5
Pieces from 2006: 3
Pieces from 2007: 0
Pieces from 2008: 12
Pieces from 2009: 5
Pieces from 2010: 8
Pieces from 2011: 8
Pieces from 2012: 6
Percentage of pieces from 2007 onwards:
2008: 72%
2010: 83%
2011: 85%
2012: 83%
Looking at the numbers above, it does look like 2007-2008 is the ground zero for the modern game - pieces from 2007 onwards dominate both the 2010 and 2012 championships. From the numbers, it does support my theory that the v-sets have expanded the pool of top tier pieces created between 2008 and 2010, rather than supplanting them.
The results for 2007 are interesting; a large percentage of the pieces from 2007 used in the 2008 and 2010 top 8s were Rebel (eg Princess Leia, Obi-Wan Force Spirit, Luke's Snowspeeder). Because Rebel don't feature in the 2012 top 8, 2007 pieces are absent.
Even the 2008 Championship roster is largely comprised of 2007 and 2008 pieces; the only 2006 pieces on the 2008 list are Boba Fett Bounty Hunter and Han Solo, Scoundrel.
Most used pieces from those 3 years:
General Dodonna (9)
R2-D2 Astromech Droid (7)
Mas Amedda (6)
Princess Leia (6)
Pre-2007 pieces used in those top 8 squads in 2008, 2010, and 2012:
Boba Fett, Bounty Hunter (3)
Darth Sidious (1)
Han Solo, Rebel Hero (1)
Han Solo, Scoundrel (3)
Lord Vader (1)
Mas Amedda (6)
Mon Mothma (1)
Queen Amidala (1)
R2-D2 (1)
R2-D2 Astromech Droid (7)
San Hill (1)
I added 2011 as well:
Pieces from 2004: 1
Pieces from 2005: 3
Pieces from 2006: 3
Pieces from 2007: 4
Pieces from 2008: 17
Pieces from 2009: 12
Pieces from 2010: 6
nb. Of the 2010 pieces, two are Ganner Rhysode, so only four DotF pieces in there (Spaarti, Bastila, Jedi Seer, OR Senator).
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You make an interesting argument. However, it's also clear that powercreep has jumped again with the Vsets. (I'm not bashing them, I cknow they are meant to be more competitive, and I think they've accomplished that goal nicely). I don't really mind it, myself. I can use RotS Shaak Ti with CW Captain Rex in casual games and it dosen't make much of a difference.
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corranhorn wrote:You make an interesting argument. However, it's also clear that powercreep has jumped again with the Vsets. (I'm not bashing them, I cknow they are meant to be more competitive, and I think they've accomplished that goal nicely). I don't really mind it, myself. I can use RotS Shaak Ti with CW Captain Rex in casual games and it dosen't make much of a difference. My whole point of the post is that there hasn't been very much power creep with the v-sets. They're comparable in power level to the pieces from 2007-2008 onwards, while most of the 2004-2006 pieces had already been left behind before the v-sets started. A wide range of 2008 pieces were featured in the top 8 of the 2012 championships (Captain Rex, General Dodonna, Han Galactic Hero, GOWK, Captain Panaka, Echani Handmaiden, Gungan Shieldbearer, Juggernaut War Droid). As a comparison only Mas Amedda and Lord Vader from 2006 featured in the 2010 championship.
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TheHutts wrote:corranhorn wrote:You make an interesting argument. However, it's also clear that powercreep has jumped again with the Vsets. (I'm not bashing them, I cknow they are meant to be more competitive, and I think they've accomplished that goal nicely). I don't really mind it, myself. I can use RotS Shaak Ti with CW Captain Rex in casual games and it dosen't make much of a difference. My whole point of the post is that there hasn't been very much power creep with the v-sets. They're comparable in power level to the pieces from 2007-2008 onwards, while most of the 2004-2006 pieces had already been left behind before the v-sets started. A wide range of 2008 pieces were featured in the top 8 of the 2012 championships (Captain Rex, General Dodonna, Han Galactic Hero, GOWK, Captain Panaka, Echani Handmaiden, Gungan Shieldbearer, Juggernaut War Droid). As a comparison only Mas Amedda and Lord Vader from 2006 featured in the 2010 championship. I was agreeing with you...didn't make it clear enough. By jumped I really just meant increased. The point of my post was to simply reinforce the idea that the Vsets have made a step forward in power creep (Not necessarily by a huge amount). In other words, powercreep hasn't died.
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corranhorn wrote:I was agreeing with you...didn't make it clear enough. By jumped I really just meant increased. The point of my post was to simply reinforce the idea that the Vsets have made a step forward in power creep (Not necessarily by a huge amount).
In other words, powercreep hasn't died. The point of my post was that I don't think the v-sets have caused very much powercreep at the competitive end of the game. Competitive pieces from 2007-2008 are still mostly good. I think what the v-sets have done has provided more even sets - if you look at Legacy of the Force from 2008, there are some great pieces like General Dodonna, Han Solo, Galactic Hero, and the Elite Rebel Commando but a whole lot of unusable stuff like Moff Morlish Veed, Human Scout, Leia Organa Solo, Jedi Knight. In the v-sets, the gap between the good pieces and the bad pieces within a set is much smaller. I think that's partly what creates an illusion of powercreep for some people.
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TheHutts wrote:corranhorn wrote:I was agreeing with you...didn't make it clear enough. By jumped I really just meant increased. The point of my post was to simply reinforce the idea that the Vsets have made a step forward in power creep (Not necessarily by a huge amount).
In other words, powercreep hasn't died. The point of my post was that I don't think the v-sets have caused very much powercreep at the competitive end of the game. Competitive pieces from 2007-2008 are still mostly good. I think what the v-sets have done has provided more even sets - if you look at Legacy of the Force from 2008, there are some great pieces like General Dodonna, Han Solo, Galactic Hero, and the Elite Rebel Commando but a whole lot of unusable stuff like Moff Morlish Veed, Human Scout, Leia Organa Solo, Jedi Knight. In the v-sets, the gap between the good pieces and the bad pieces within a set is much smaller. I think that's partly what creates an illusion of powercreep for some people. Look at Momaw Nadon. Look at Bastila, JM. Look at Corran, JM (as much as I hate to admit it). Look at Darth Maul, SI. Look at Master Vandar. You can't deny that powercreep has taken place. I won't insult you by taking individual pieces and comparing them to old WotC pieces.
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Feel free to do the comparison. Just be sure to compare to the tier 1 WotC pieces. There were only about 150 of them, if that. And for Bastila, the only real comparisons are the auto-includes of other factions: Thrawn, Rieekan, Dodonna, R2-AM.
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corranhorn wrote:Look at Momaw Nadon. Look at Bastila, JM. Look at Corran, JM (as much as I hate to admit it). Look at Darth Maul, SI. Look at Master Vandar. You can't deny that powercreep has taken place. I won't insult you by taking individual pieces and comparing them to old WotC pieces. See, I don't think there's a huge difference between the pieces you named and the best of what Wizards released between 2007 and 2010. Momaw Nadon is very efficient at clearing scrubs and I agree that he is a very strong piece. But Wizards already released extremely strong scrub killers like Yoda on Kybuck and the Lancer. Additionally, Momaw Nadon is great at dealing with walls of mouse droids, which was an issue that Wizards left the game with that made it less fun. I think he's a positive for the game, and is costed appropriately. Bastila JM is the most controversial piece on your list. My opinion is that she's very, very strong for 33 points, but that she has helped to open up the game from when it was dominated by Rebels stacking commander effects and has made the Old Republic usable. There's a big thread about her from a month or two ago, so I don't want to go into her too much. Corran, JM, Darth Maul, SI, Master Vandar. They're all good solid pieces that I like and use and I think they're costed just about right. A lot of the big Wizards-era beatsticks are overcosted (eg Darth Sion, Jedi Master Kit Fisto, and Master Windu). I think they really need to be compared with the good Wizards-era beatsticks; pieces like Lord Vader, Vader Scourge of the Jedi, and Mara Jade Jedi. I think they're nicely priced in line with those. And for the record, I'm not involved in v-sets at all. I'm just a fan, and they've done a great job keeping our local meta fresh and exciting.
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FlyingArrow wrote:Feel free to do the comparison. Just be sure to compare to the tier 1 WotC pieces. This is the biggest thing. In all, the V-sets have been almost solely adding to the top tiers whereas pieces from the WotC sets have run the gambit from top-tier to near-unplayable.
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Vandar created power creep? Probably why he won all those regionals and did so well at gencon.
What happened to 2009 and 2011?
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Weeks wrote:Vandar created power creep? Probably why he won all those regionals and did so well at gencon.
What happened to 2009 and 2011? I couldn't find full squad details for the top 8 in 2009 (or 2007). Then it made sense to do every second year. I imagine 2011 would look pretty similar to 2010 - I think there were a whole bunch of Republic and New Republic squads with few v-set pieces and a lot of pieces that were originally released between 2008 and 201.? There was only one v-set available at that point though.
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TheHutts wrote:corranhorn wrote:Look at Momaw Nadon. Look at Bastila, JM. Look at Corran, JM (as much as I hate to admit it). Look at Darth Maul, SI. Look at Master Vandar. You can't deny that powercreep has taken place. I won't insult you by taking individual pieces and comparing them to old WotC pieces. See, I don't think there's a huge difference between the pieces you named and the best of what Wizards released between 2007 and 2010. Momaw Nadon is very efficient at clearing scrubs and I agree that he is a very strong piece. But Wizards already released extremely strong scrub killers like Yoda on Kybuck and the Lancer. Additionally, Momaw Nadon is great at dealing with walls of mouse droids, which was an issue that Wizards left the game with that made it less fun. I think he's a positive for the game, and is costed appropriately. Bastila JM is the most controversial piece on your list. My opinion is that she's very, very strong for 33 points, but that she has helped to open up the game from when it was dominated by Rebels stacking commander effects and has made the Old Republic usable. There's a big thread about her from a month or two ago, so I don't want to go into her too much. Corran, JM, Darth Maul, SI, Master Vandar. They're all good solid pieces that I like and use and I think they're costed just about right. A lot of the big Wizards-era beatsticks are overcosted (eg Darth Sion, Jedi Master Kit Fisto, and Master Windu). I think they really need to be compared with the good Wizards-era beatsticks; pieces like Lord Vader, Vader Scourge of the Jedi, and Mara Jade Jedi. I think they're nicely priced in line with those. And for the record, I'm not involved in v-sets at all. I'm just a fan, and they've done a great job keeping our local meta fresh and exciting. First of all...I'm just a fan too, and I'm as happy about and supportive of the Vsets as you are for the same reasons. I think I've misrepresented myself here. My point is simply that it's impossible to deny that there has been some amount of power creep in the Vsets, no matter how small. Now... Yes, Yobuck and the Lancers can kill scrubs just as well, if not better, as Momaw. But, both are much more expensive and not Fringe. Momaw can be fit into just about any squad, or be brought in as reinforcements/reserves easily. Yeah, I have no desire to reopen the debate with Bastila. Let's just say she's very strong and leave it at that. I'm not contending that the other 3 are "game breaking". Howevr, they are costed very aggressively. Master Vandar is an excellent and very mobile piece. (I also like that he hurts Windu LotLS). With Force Leap it's relatively easy to set up Ataru. I don't have a comparison for him, since I didn't really see any 60 point or so WotC Tier 1 beats. Corran....as above, I don't have a comparison (same cost). But my thoughts...Triple Attack plus MR2 plus Oppurtunist makes him a melee beast. On top of that, Jedi Reflexes and Oppurtunist are a powerful synergy. He's iffy. Darth Maul SI is crazy. 160 damage output, possibly on the move, for 57 points. When he's in Sith, you can safely assume that the Sidious, SH will be hooked up to him for FR. Throw in Cloaked and you have someone who can pop out of cover on your first activation, deal 160 damage, and pop back in cover. (Also, with Wyyrlok coming out, and don't add this in since it's an extra 30 odd points, he can take advantage of Loner as well as Sidious's CE). Teras Kasi and LSRiposte are overkill, with the end result that he can stand up to any melee beat (and certainly any ranged w/o flight) easily,short of an EPIC. Force Leap just makes it easier for him to get back to cover if outgunned. Compared to Lord Vader (at 14 points more) Maul is looking very good. True, you lose the CE, and that can be big. However, it rarely is, as most squads with him focus on beefing him up. Lord Vader's maximum damage is 120, compared to Maul's 160. They have to spend the same amount of Force Points to reach this total. Vader has OF, which is nice, but it dosen't make a huge difference in my experience. (It can, but it's pretty situational. Not usually worth one of Vader's two FP). Vader has slightly beefier stats. cHowever, Vader's protection is inferior to Maul's. Teras Kasi beats Dark armor easily against melee, and I'd take Cloaked over Dark Armor against shooters any day.They both have Force Leap. Vader has Sweep, and MotF 2 (which has already been factored in), and Maul has Riposte. I'd take Riposte becuase it just sadds to Maul's melee dominance, but YMMV.
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EmporerDragon wrote:FlyingArrow wrote:Feel free to do the comparison. Just be sure to compare to the tier 1 WotC pieces. This is the biggest thing. In all, the V-sets have been almost solely adding to the top tiers whereas pieces from the WotC sets have run the gambit from top-tier to near-unplayable. Which I acknowledged.
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Also, Lord Vader is far, far more mobile than Maul. Last I checked, Maul does not have Mobile Attack. Ambush doesn't let you move again, so you can't just pop back in. Overwhelming might not be too good in your experience, but with a few good SSM figs, Makashi and Parry getting a bit more prevalent, and against Maul's Teras Kasi, Overwhelming Force is the better option over Rage. There are also complete squad differences that make your comparisons moot. You point out all the squad support Maul has, but lack to point out Vader's very potent support.
Now, Maul was a bit of a mistake. Affinity was added very late in the game, and his cost was not upped accordingly, imo. And honestly, there is a bit point I think you missed. We've only had 2-3 years of the championship being 200 pts. The 150 meta, especially with GOWK at full potency, is much, much different.
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On the contrary. I pointed out one 11 point pece which anyone with half a brain will use with Maul. I intentionally did not take other Sith CEs etc into account. If you like, assume that Lord Vader gets Mas Amedda. Forgive me, but I fail to see your point about mobility. Vader dosen't have Mobile either.
You make a fair point about OF.
I can compare him to GOWK, but that miniature is controversial enough. Definitely not my baseline for determining balance.
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MOTF 2, with Force Leap, is the ideal positioning ability. A lot of it comes from my experience of using him in 100 pts. Moving 16 is pretty potent for setting up a strike. And Assaulting from 8 away is still potent enough.
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I was also reading old threads about power creep to get some context - this from Boris The Dwarf, on the Wizards board in 2008, is interesting: Boris_the_Dwarf wrote: Quote:
I don't think there has been powercreep either.
What has happened is that we are playing a different game than what was originally envisioned.
The first four sets were built around the idea of "beer-and-pretzels" style games that would only be played around the kitchen table, and the occasional big-convention tournament event.
That is why the competitive venue was so limited in the beginning; there were very few "great squads."
Today's game is focused on $5,000 Championships so there needs to be more diversity at the competitive level.
Couple that with 2 major design mistakes, as well as the reassessment of melee figures, and I think it's obvious why the game has changed.
Good or bad, right or wrong, this is not a casual kitchen table game anymore.
And quoting Sithborg from 2009 Quote:
Melee in the RS - Universe era was bad. Only Vader, JH made the cut. Vader/Palps in RS only was pretty good, but after that, melee just could not keep up with range.
So in some ways, the game spent the first few years finding its identity, and then power creep has been there but reasonably minimal since? That's my perception.
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All the best points have been made. It can definitely look like power creep, but it really has just been a higher concentration of pieces at the higher power levels that WotC set. As much as I dislike Bastilla, I don't think she is much more powerful than Rieekan, Dodonna, Thrawn, Whorm Loathsome, or Doombot (especially considering her price relative to all of them!). Corran Horn, Vandar, and Maul SI are actually LESS powerful than the Lancer, Lord Vader, or Yobuck. Case in point: Vandar and Maul high practically no impact whatsoever on the competive scene since they've been released, and Corran has only made a light splash (really just by me and Deri). Lancers and Yobuck have very recently either won (Minis Mania) or done incredibly well at (2nd place at GenCon) very competitve tournaments. Lord Vader didn't win any regionals I don't think (or did he?), but did get a very close 2nd place at Kentucky last year.
If you compare the v-sets in their entirety to the WotC stuff in their entirety, even adjusting for ever (like counting Aurra Sing as a top tier piece since she was at the time), the yes, the average power level of new pieces has gone up quite a bit. If you compare the top tier stuff being released now with the top tier stuff being released then, though, there isn't too much of a difference I don't think. Maybe it has increased a little, but that's natural.
The ceiling hasn't gone up very much, there are just more things near the top.
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Ok, to make sure I understand what is being discussed here: I'm assuming powercreep basically means that the older pieces are being used less?
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pegolego wrote:Ok, to make sure I understand what is being discussed here: I'm assuming powercreep basically means that the older pieces are being used less? That was what I was using as an indicator of powercreep; if there was a lot of powercreep, the older pieces would be outpaced and would no longer make the GenCon top 8 en masse. I think the results bear out that a lot of the power creep happened between the first set and around 2007-2008, and that it's actually been relatively stable since. And even if the 2012 results had been more skewed towards 2010 onwards, that wouldn't have been too surprising as each v-sets have generally provided a lot of options for competitive play. Now if someone says that powercreep in the v-sets is out of control, I can point them to my workings! I think there's way more diversity creep than there is power creep.
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