So I understand how everyone wants every faction to have a competitive squad.... But this Von situation I think is almost out of control. I

I could be in he minority here...But there is just SO many SA for the Vong right now that I feel in tournament style play, it only slows the game down.

Does anyone else feel the Vong (even tho they are not top tier yet) are getting WAY to many new special abilities?

I think the designers could make this faction way better with some traditional abilities that are not as specific/time consuming than creating these new abilities that just take time to learn in a tournament...

Thoughts?

NO, resons been
1.Vong might have access to a lot of options but most vong are still pretty weak in terms of hit points and there defence number.
2. In a standard 200 point squad you can't have access to them all.
3. There armour is not all that effective as you can fore the most part only avoid 10 points of damage unlike evade/parry which avoids all damage.
4. If you stack your squad with just vong to get the most out of there SA's you starve your squad of fringe support.
5. Most are melee or only have range 6 and razor bug which is not range limited still only doing 10 damage unlike shooters which can do up to what? 60-100 damage?
6.Things like super-stealth which when it came out was powerful as only Vong had it is no longer there's alone, it is not even as powerful as cloaked or invisibility.

Yes Vong can be very affective nowadays partially against other Melee heavy squads, but no where near the point where they dominate even that kind of game, not that you face a totally melee squad often in any case.


Lastly you admit yourself that Vong are not a tier 1 faction so your point is made invalid by your own statement of them not been tier 1. Not sure which faction you think is tier 1 (as that might change from set to set) but surely you compliant should be aimed at that faction.

Finally I personally don't think there SA's are to difficult to understand or play. Which I think is what you were actually asking in your post.

So no can't say I agree at all.

"I could be in he minority here...But there is just SO many SA for the Vong right now that I feel in tournament style play, it only slows the game down."

Well even though I disagree I doubt you are in the minority on this, still it is a very good topic of conversation, look forward to reading everyone else view on this.

I've wanted to see an SA or CE that extends the range of the Thud Bug to allow the Vong to have a distance game that doesn't rely on Razorbugs. Or there could be one that buffs Razorbugs, which only do 10 dmg if I remember correctly.

There could also be an SA/CE that buffs the damage reduction of VCA. I think there's one that lowers the save needed, but it still prevents 10, right? Could always have a shaper that lets it prevent 20.

There's still room for Vong movement breakers in the game, too. I think a wonderful idea for the Vong, and something no faction had until Caedus SL was the ability to "pull" enemies closer. A Dovin Basal unit could do that, and for utility, could also allow the Basal to "push" enemies a few squares as well. The Basal itself wouldn't do damage (unless you allow it to "push"/"pull" into pits, but it could set up some combat tricks for the Vong (as well as let them close the distance). It could also block adjacent Vong from shooters if so desired, with the little black holes. The Basal would have emplacement (they don't seem mobile in the novels).

And none of these ideas are game-breaking, I wouldn't think.

As Death's Baine hinted, the Vong simply don't work with many of the traditional abilities that are good, or at least wouldn't make sense with them present in quantities similar to other factions. The Vong are not going to get playable because a big piece gets 20 Damage and Evade, they're going to get playable when they get a very good SA.

Originally when the Vong came out I was really excited. But they never played as I perceived them in the books.
The only piece I felt was a real good interpretation was Nom Anor.
I really don't like tech squads. So it comes to no surprise that I don't even ever bother to make a vong squad. Ever.
Takes too long to set up too long to build and even longer to explain in games.
I'm saying all this because I think that Wotc had it wrong from the get go. And even though some of the v-set pieces are really really clever and creative the faction is too messed up to begin with. It really needs a reboot.

The vong should be extremely heavy hitters (damage 30) with melee range 2, and parry as a common special abilities. Poison spitter should automatically be part of the warrior caste. They always seemed to have some cunning ambush type attack the would the NR by surprise. You never saw them coming type faction.Then the shapers with all their special abilities and implants should dominate and set them apart from the ce heavy squads.
Please make the vong fun and worthy of the new Jedi Order arc.

In summery. I believe v-set has it right in making the vong different. But they have a to much of a handicap with the original sets vision.

Cheers

problem with high base damage is the shaper, priest, etc. to late they were already a part of the WoTC so they would be doing massive damage and it would be to much.

I believe they need a special ability kind of like lightsaber/poisoned blade,etc, called amphistaff.
Amphistaff, would have to be a variety of flavorful things such as when it was a spear, sure you could throw it give them some range like lightsaber throw, then when you get adjacent it would become like poisoned blade a melee attack, and since amphistaffs could deliver a poisonous bite there you go theres your bonus to damge, on the flip side you could make it like the whip aspect of it and give them clamp, where they cant move away from you.
not sure how to word all of that but that would immediately help that faction, range threat, high adjacent damage possibilities, and even some tech with clamp to make them stay and fight once you get into the battle.

I don't think it needs a reboot. After all, most melee is either 10 or 20 damage, and most melee damage 20 pieces use lightsabers.

I posted before about buffing their attack, and I like the poison blade idea. Shapers can always set that up, just as they can more defense.

I think of the Vong as "melee Mandalorians," by which I mean the Vong are going to end up as one of those factions where you have to figure out what you want each piece to do. The Mandalorians are already like that, but they're shooters, so they get away with it more easily.

Pieces like my proposed Dovin Basal, shapers, and even base pieces that get stronger in certain situations can really help them out.

The NJO are some of my favorite books in the EU, and I think WotC got the basic flavor right: they're melee-centric and immune to the Force. Outside of some of their greatest warriors, there's no evidence that they should have Melee Reach 2, and really only the Supreme Overlords and Shedao Shai should have that.

Things I do feel WotC got wrong: not enough droid-hate in the faction, VCA should be lightsaber resistant like Dark Armor and reduce shooter damage as it currently stands, the poison/versatility of the amphistaffs should have been played up more, and I don't think the Thud Bug ability really covers what they did in the books. But none of that constitutes a reboot. Pretty much all of it can be fixed with 10-20 point pieces.

*EDIT*

Agreed, Vong should have higher HP and Parry much more often.

They could still get VCA/defense buffs, parry, things like that, though. Their buffs are nice, not gonna lie, but the Vong still have to live and close the gap. They're much better at that now, but there's still room to improve.

Vong "shooters" can be doable, too. Thud Bug and Razorbug replace attacks, so Shaper/Scarification don't apply to them. So there could conceivably be some damage boosting (both)/range boosting (Thud Bug).

Now that I think about it, things like VCA/defense buffs and Parry can really help the Vong alot. Improve their defenses, and their survivability goes up. But they'll still take damage by the time they close, so they'll have the damage boosts. They just wouldn't take anywhere near as much, and Parry lets them stand better vs the newer Jedi.

Plus a Basal piece could really help their attack placement and closing ability as well, it would be an interesting gimmick for them. Sure, the Sith have a version of it, but flavorfully, they'd be quite different: Sith manipulate the mind to move the piece, Vong manipulate gravity itself to move the piece (with save, of course, since there wouldn't be an FP limit).

Hm. How'd I screw up Dark Armor, lol. I was actually trying to make a connection to resistance to their shooter bane. When I mentioned the lightsabers, the idea was for -10 or so, since most Jedi do a ton of damage at once. The Vong can't match their damage output even with Scarification/Shaper, and rely on good VCA rolls to stay alive.

Every time I play Vong, I get torn up on my way to the enemy beatsticks. Shooters just tear Vong a new one. The VCA movement breaker helps some, but the Vong still need some help setting up attack situations and closing the distance at very least. Or some buffs to their attack-replacing Razorbugs and Thud Bugs to give them a little ranged viability while they close.

I'm not saying I want Vong to slaughter the enemy beatsticks; they do a pretty good job holding their own once they get to basing, damage disparity notwithstanding. Rather than buffing their attack, upping their survivability, both at range and in close would help them overcome their other glaring weakness: staying on the board. They were extremely tough to take down in the books, after all.

There are plenty of ways to help the Vong that won't send them to broken with absurd damage grunts:
-More movement breakers, especially unorthodox ones
-Parry (the only melee feature they're missing)
-Razorbug damage buff (SA replaces attacks)
-Thud Bug range buff/damage buff (SA replaces attacks)
-Non-melee defense buffs
-HP buffs on higher-end and/or Unique pieces

I did know about the Charging Fire, but I forgot.

Schooled me twice, there, you did. Guess that's why I don't play competitively :-P Just going up to bat for my favorite faction lol

Of course, now I'm going to do whatever I can to get that 200 damage.