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So, not the last SHNN, but the one before (I am sooo behind at the moment), Laura/UrbanShmi was asked and spoke at length about the ladies of SWM, females that play the game and what we can do as a community to encourage that and help grow that side of the game. Kudos. Over here in NZ, we have had a record high of two females players at any one time and we're currently at zero (possibly one) out of 40. That is bad of us! Much to work on. Anyhoo... one of the points discussed during the podcast was the masses of characters in the game and the huge volume of maps etc., and how the sheer mass of always-changing squads can be off-putting for new players in general. They learn the game and then, the very next game, they face a COMPLETELY different squad with massive abilities. Your first game you play against Stealth and Blue and get the crap swapped out of you and then, just when you think you've got the hang of the game, your next game is against Bastilla and the OR. Ouch. What do we do abouts that for new players? Well, I was thinking while I was doing the lawns. Good place to think, what. Hypothetically. What if we had a list or lists of characters and maps that were levelled? Lou said on that same SHNN discussion that when he teaches someone, he only plays 100pts, would probably use Rebel Storm pieces minus R2 and no Gambit! The basics. I am teaching students at my High School and we're about to start our first Naenae College SWM Tournament! 8 players! Anyhoo, we started with 100pt games, basic as squads. Same deal. Say for example we start with a Level 1 list for each faction and fringe. Rebel Storm Luke is Level 1, some of the CS/RotS Jedi are Level 1, Death Star is Level 1, 100pts is Level 1 etc. When we bring in new players into a group, we announce to the group, "hey - this week it's Level 1 night" or "bring a Level 1 squad in case any new players arrive". What happens if we have a SET Levelling system so that we can easily bring players through the game with out blowing their brains out? Once a player has learnt the basic tenants of the game, they move to level 2 - add new maps, new characters, new game styles. So on and so forth, until they reach level 5 or whatever - everything is in. We could rejig (maybe?) the BlooMilk squad builder with Levels. I could make a new map .pdf with Levels. SWMresources could have a set of rules or alternate floor rules for Levels. New Vset characters could be added each half-year to what ever list they suited. A new player could be guided through the game is a progression AND everyone would have a clear idea what that looked like. That might go a certain way towards integrating older players who have come back to the modern form of the game or are picking up Vsets for the first time. "Don't worry about Caedus - he's a Level 5. Start with the Ugnaught Jedi." New players, whether male or FEMALE (original thought process), will have a set path of play to follow. Complexity can slowly build. No one bringing a Level 2 squad will have to worry about a Lancer. It would take a little bit to sort out what it could look like, plus then there'd need to be a series of conversations about what constituted a level and then who was where... it's kinda like a BlooMilk rating system...? Anyhoo, that's what happens when I do the lawns.   My 7-year old daughter wants me to add this smilies.
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Well, this isn't a bad idea! Actually I only got into the game because I found it on my own. Then I got a few friends to play with me. We all had no idea what we were doing at first, and we all learned together as a group. So, I think it would be good to get a few people together and try to get them into the game. Instead of just having an experienced player vs. an inexperienced one, you can now have an inexperienced vs. an inexperienced. That way, they don't get crushed all the time, and they can both learn from each other. Where would you be in all of this? Coaching them of course! It's kind of like learning how to play chess for the first time. Usually you have to guide the new player as to what to do. That's my input, GBC 
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Pretty solid Idea, I don't need it since me my brother and the 4 friends we play it with all no the game but it's a great Idea :)
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I don't think making a complete character list is needed, just introducing them to the sets a bit at a time, so they have time to learn the meta and don't get overwhelmed.
Off the top of my head I'd say:
Level 1: RS-Universe, 100 pts. No Override
Level 2: RS-BH, 100 or 150 pts
Level 3: RS-KOTOR, 150 or 200 points
Level 4: RS-MotF, 150 or 200 points
Level 5: Everything allowed
Another way I can think of would be to simulate boosters to introduce minis to the group. Start off with the first two sets unrestricted, then "open" a booster of RotS. The figures in that booster are unlocked for everybody. When most of the set is unlocked, unlock everything that's left and move to the next set.
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This sounds like a great idea. Being someone who caught the diversity of the game without being too surprised, i wouldn't have needed this when i started, but i know people who even after playing for about a year still haven't got the hang of it. So this wouldn't definitely benefit those people who find a highly complicated game sometimes repulsive.
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Wonderful idea.
Character list, or even pre-set squads would be in order for the first two levels. Levels 1 and 2 should work like a boardgame - a player shouldn't have to do any squadbuilding while still having a squad that is on par with the opposing squad(s). And like a boardgame, the abilities at levels 1 and 2 should be simple enough to fully grasp in one evening - to the point that by the end of the evening looking at cards for the definition of abilities is minimal.
I was just commented to someone over on boardgamegeek about turning their SWM collection into a boardgame by partitioning their collection into balanced squads. I'd kind of like to do something similar myself, but I wouldn't because I don't want to store my collection that way. Still - it would be nice to have some 'canonical' squads printed out that are known to be fun to play and balanced against one another, even if they aren't competitive at tournaments.
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Love it! Something I wanted to mention on the show was that when I first started playing regularly (early 2009, right around the release of IE), we had a guy in our playgroup who ONLY played Han STA swarms (mainly Human Force Adepts, but also Aqualishes and the like, boosted by an Ithorian Commander). I think it was more about what pieces he had and what he was comfortable with than what he thought was competitive, but it struck me as a really solid "basic-level" squad. The CEs aren't particularly complex, and you don't have to worry so much about line of sight, range, etc. Actually, I'd say that in general the more melee-based squads are probably the easier ones to learn, so we'd have to be careful to include some ranged builds as well (because I notice that a lot of people, especially beginners, for whatever reason, seem to prefer blasters to lightsabers).
Something else that would be nice about this is it could bring back some of the older, "less-balanced" maps into general use (I'm thinking about Death Star and Hall of Judgment in particular, but there are obviously others). Those maps are both more simple in layout AND less exploitable by squads that aren't at full power.
I think if we do this, we shouldn't think exclusively, or even mostly, about power level, but about complexity of abilities and interactions between abilities, as well as what makes the game "fun." I've told the story a couple of times, that J and I originally started playing "booster wars" (which I also think is a great way to learn) around the time RotS came out, but I quit after J Disintegrated a full-health Darth Tyrannus (probably the one and only time I've ever cried, "broken!!!!!"). Not my proudest moment, but an example of the kind of elements that are probably best introduced later in the learning process at the risk of totally turning someone off.
So here's an idea I would propose for what we might call Level 1 gameplay. These are the basic-level things that I think people getting into the game need to be exposed to and understand:
Speed 6
Use of force points (including unwritten Force powers, but probably no force renewal)
Basic CEs (probably including swap, but no Mas Amedda)
How to count range (including abilities like Missiles, Grenades, Disruptive, etc.)
Determining LoS and Cover in easy cases (i.e., no beveled corners)
Determining targets
Stealth (but probably not superstealth)
Mobile attack (but not greater mobile attack, although I would include that at level 2 or 3)
Accurate Shot
I'm on the fence about mouse droids. I sort of feel like it might be best to learn to use ranged CEs within the specified range, and build up to including abilities that increase the range.
So obviously what I've got here is more a list of concepts than a list of characters or special abilities, and the gaming background of the player in question will probably alter things to some degree.
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UrbanShmi wrote:
I sort of feel like it might be best to learn to use ranged CEs within the specified range, and build up to including abilities that increase the range.
Agreed. Otherwise they easily become a crutch which will hamper the player's development in the long-term.
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UrbanShmi wrote:So here's an idea I would propose for what we might call Level 1 gameplay. These are the basic-level things that I think people getting into the game need to be exposed to and understand:
Speed 6
Use of force points (including unwritten Force powers, but probably no force renewal)
Basic CEs (probably including swap, but no Mas Amedda)
How to count range (including abilities like Missiles, Grenades, Disruptive, etc.)
Determining LoS and Cover in easy cases (i.e., no beveled corners)
Determining targets
Stealth (but probably not superstealth)
Mobile attack (but not greater mobile attack, although I would include that at level 2 or 3)
Accurate Shot
I'm on the fence about mouse droids. I sort of feel like it might be best to learn to use ranged CEs within the specified range, and build up to including abilities that increase the range.
I wouldn't include swap at level 1. Level 1 should be extremely plain and vanilla. No movement breakers. No CEs or SAs beyond a basic +4/+10 or similar SA like Opportunist/Cunning. Strategy becomes keeping fodder in front, and looking for the best lines of sight. Targets, line of sight, grenades, saves, simple force powers, etc. Each character should mostly be understood just from reading the card - just one commander per squad. Pure learning game. Movement breakers add a lot to the game, but even the simple ones should be at Level 2. (Level 1 shouldn't be used for more than a quick learning game - 100 pt game or even just 50 with a few troopers. Or maybe call that Level 0 if it's too basic.)
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Good idea from a guy who seems to be full of them. One method I have used for years to introduce new players to the game is to run scenarios and mass battles. That way, you have total control of what abilities get used, what maps are played on and even what pieces get used. If using it as a teaching platform, you can isolate abilities/force powers. Multiplayer games like this help the new people learn the game without the tension of one on one competition. The new player has teammate(s) who can guide him, and he is free to ask them for clarification or advice.
Many new players don't have any interest in the competitive game. That's okay...we just want new players. My group seems to be transitioning into a less competitive group. Go with the flow to generate the most interest, I say.
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Jim,
Are there scenarios that you go back to?
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Typically with new players I stick to the original trilogy because I can still do themed mass battles and there aren't as many force users. However, I'd go with a prequel theme if the new players were younger and identified with those characters.
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Jim, I'm often told I'm full of something.
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kezzamachine wrote:Jim, I'm often told I'm full of something. Well, you're married. Been there, done that...for 30 years as of May 21.
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Hmmm.... this is a great topic, thanks OP! The discussion points are great, and might help for future gaming opportunities. I've grappled with a similar question myself, and I'd speculate that the short answer is marketing (or audience demand). Time for the long answer,  Some of the random games I've observed played in public (one in Thailand, one in Japan (Fukuoka), several in QLD/AUS and many in VIC/AUS) had women 'hipster' players - I think its mainly the game is boring to the female part of the audience. Lets remember, the game is after all an OOP niche boardgame circa 2004-2010 directed primarily at male fans of star wars between the ages of 8-25 with disposable income, with a secondary target group of star wars fans generally, and a tertiary group/affiliation with toy soldier collecting (which, is another male dominated hobby). I dont think the popularity image problem of the game is because women players dont necessarily understand the mechanics of the game, - in fact, doing exhibition matches at conventions, writers events and at university open days (using the mass produced rules insert, and balanced squads/entry level squads/non-toptier competitive squads), I've found women are VERY adept players of SWMs. Feedback as to why they don't play the game more or would be inclined to recommend the game to friends includes: they find the social stigma of playing such a nerdly/niche game unwelcome, its not a multiplayer game they can bring out for a fun time at social events and they find the game itself to be pointless/boring (feedback from 30+females). All of that, and lets add some more perspective: people generally these days are sooo busy! When you're not 'on the hunt hunting for hunting for' part-time/transient work, you're out there "putting feelers out" to be sociable/socially adept (vs niche, reserved and socially awkward) doing all of which may increase the slim odds of upward mobility ever so slightly in your favor... (END CYNIC RANT) So, i think its a case of work with what you got; get your local female players to spread the word about the good thing to their female networks, and give the gift of SWM to their other female friends. In the interests of comparison, Magic the Gathering, D&D, LOTR the boardgame, Settlers of Catan and Heroclix see a LOT more female players- maybe 45%:55% in favor of males - I think there's something more appealing about those mentioned games to a wider audience than SWMs. Some suggested factors: Womens friends are all playing those games (and thus there is social capital); they are mostly quick and easy to learn, the games are multiplayer and co-operative; and above all fun (cue a Cyndi Lauper song). Robot Chicken went a little way into making SWMs cool via the brief cameo appearances... Big Bang Theory tv show has also made nerdy things fun-ny and kitch/hipster. Maybe if famous people were caught playing the game, and it was seen to be the cool, hip, sociable (and thus, rewarding) thing to do? Maybe if SWMs were seen as a fashion accessory; thereby adding to the pull factor/coolness an alpha female could garner? A Star Wars Minis Tshirt? maybe a button badge (something small and discrete to hand to uni students) or even an advocacy pin? As it stands, SWMs is about as appealing to females as competition chess, with a similar gender breakdown I would even go so far to suggest. Itd be similar to checkers, backgammon... or the classic, monopoly. Although there may be a skewed gender representation at those games, that lower female participation rate is made up for by a marked increased quality;in the local chess league for example, female players consistently rank in the top 10, and are very very competitive players. So maybe pitch to groups who wouldnt think touching a SWM piece was social suicide? Another target group, besides people already at SCIFantasy conventions and writers groups, are any womens leagues/clubs and particularly women in science groups (such as engineering guilds, maths clubs etc): these young women are not only brilliant at tactics, but are keen to give sci fi a try and its a win win! And if all else fails, and you cant be bothered fundraising for the requisite viral advertising campaign (to influence social norms enough to make SWM widely appealing to women/actually exist on their social radar), if you want to up the female participation is to have more female children and start them off young
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kobayashimaru wrote:Hmmm.... And if all else fails, and you cant be bothered fundraising for the requisite viral advertising campaign (to influence social norms enough to make SWM widely appealing to women/actually exist on their social radar), if you want to up the female participation is to have more female children and start them off young Already working on it! Two daughters!
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I've been reading this with great interest and want to try something. Say we took a small faction - OR for example - what would be Level 1 pieces? The one's you start with? Level 2? The next level? Let's say we went as high as Level 5 where we were all in... what would 3 and 4 look like?
Champions of the Force
Bastila Shan
Jedi Consular
Jedi Guardian
Jedi Sentinel
Old Republic Commander
Old Republic Soldier
Legacy of the Force
Nomi Sunrider
Old Republic Recruit
Old Republic Scout
Knights of the Old Republic
Atton Rand
Bao-Dur
Carth Onasi
Juggernaut War Droid
Master Lucien Draay
Mira
Old Republic Captain
Old Republic Guard
Squint
Visas Marr
Wookiee Elite Warrior
Wookiee Trooper
Jedi Academy
Jedi Battlemaster
Jedi Crusader
The Jedi Exile
Vodo-Siosk Baas
Antarian Ranger
Youngling
Dark Times
Jedi Watchman
Masters of the Force
Cay Qel-Droma
Jedi Healer
Jedi Instructor
Jedi Sith Hunter
Lord Hoth
Destiny of the Force
Bastila Shan, Jedi Master
Jedi Seer
Old Republic Senator
Old Republic Tech Specialist
The Revanchist
Tactical Officer
Renegades and Rogues
Admiral Saul Karath
Atton "Jaq" Rand
Carth Onasi, Old Republic Soldier
Jedi Diplomat
Elite Gunner
Master Kavar
Master Thon
Wookiee Jedi
Gray Jedi
Vengeance
Belth Allusis, Jedi Master
Covenant Consular
Covenant Hand
Jedi Shadow
Master Vandar
Mical, The Disciple
Nomi Sunrider, Head of the Jedi Order
Old Republic Trooper
Scum and Villany
Bao-Dur, Tech Specialist
Elite Old Republic Soldier
Padawan Learner
Old Republic Jedi Knight
Satele Shan
The Old Republic
Aric Jorgan
Kira Carsen
Qyzen Fess
Galactic Heroes
Krynda Draay
Mirialan Jedi Knight
Old Republic Rookie
Smuggler
The Jedi Exile, Hero of Onderon
Vanguard
Antarian Ranger Captain
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kezzamachine wrote:I've been reading this with great interest and want to try something. Say we took a small faction - OR for example - what would be Level 1 pieces? The one's you start with? Level 2? The next level? Let's say we went as high as Level 5 where we were all in... what would 3 and 4 look like? Five levels is a bit much for me to think about for this - sorry! This is my quick, simplified version. Level 1 - has pre-made 50 point squads, which are hopefully reasonably balanced against the 50 point squads from other factions. I'd probably make one Ugnaught compulsory here - door control is fundamental. Level 2 - has pre-made 100 point squads, that are easy to learn. I'd probably bring in override piece for each squad too. Level 3 - 150 points - you can use whatever you want, except a few game warping pieces are out. In the case of Old Republic I think there are relatively few, you could even go as low as just Bastila Shan Jedi Master - although maybe there's a case for Old Republic Senator, Satele, and Atton 'Jaq' Rand too. Level 4 - all in.
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kezzamachine wrote:I've been reading this with great interest and want to try something. Say we took a small faction - OR for example - what would be Level 1 pieces? The one's you start with? Level 2? The next level? Let's say we went as high as Level 5 where we were all in... what would 3 and 4 look like?
I would say the levels would be: Level 1: Very straightforward. Characters have few, if any abilities/force powers and the ones they have would be simple. Commander Effects would be similarly simple. Things like top-tier power pieces, tempo control, superstealth, door control, etc. are to be avoided. Few Uniques will be in this level. Level 2: Still staying simple, but introducing some of the earlier power pieces, like Darth Vader, Sith Lord or CS Darth Maul. Level 3: Introduce higher concept things like Door Control and Tempo Control. Also increase the complexity a bit. Most, if not all, of the low to mid-tier minis should be usable at this level. Level 4: Close to level 5, but sees the removal of most of the gatekeeper pieces like Thrawn, Bastilla, GOWK and so on. This would allow players to build squads with a wide range of viable pieces but not have to worry about particular archetypes. This is also where most of the V-set stuff would be introduced. Level 5: All in
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