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Well I have been doing some looking at minis here recently and wanted to do a quick study comparing Wizards to Vsets pieces and one of the things I was wondering about was the increase in MoTF2. So here is what I found:
Wizards realeased 14 pieces with MoTF 2, 2 of which i feel can currently be played effectively, Lord Vader, and General obi-wan kenobi.
Vsets have added an additional 33 pieces with MoTF 2, but we have to take 11 of them away because they are epics leaving us with an additional 22 pieces with MoTF 2. Now of these I feel like 8 are realistically adding to the current meta or can definetly be ran with success, Darth Revan sith lord, Darth Zannah, Critdu, Satele Shan, Luke MoTo, Darth Malgus, Darth Cadeus sith lord, luke skywalker galatic hero.
What I found to be the most surprising is that Wizards actually added the most pieces with MoTF 2 at a single time with Jedi Academy bringing in a whopping 6 figures with MoTF 2, before jedi academy the previous leaders were tied at 2 each, Legacy and Knights.
The Vsets started off slowly with Destiny only adding a single piece with MoTF 2 Revan, but then jumped quickly into a rapid incline in the addition of MoTF 2, with Renegades adding 5 pieces with MoTF 2, Vengeance bringing in 3, Jedi vs Sith a miniset brought in 5 more, then GH added 4 more.
So in 16 sets and the battle packs wizards brought in 14 pieces with MoTF 2 averaging around .5 a set.
The vsets in 5 sets and the battle packs, have added 22 pieces, averaging a little over 2 a set.
Which leads me to my question/point. What changed in the game or designing or play testing do you think added to the increase in MoTF 2? Do you feel like it was for character representation, power creep, balancing out the factions, or a way to help jedi make it against shooters?
I was just curious and wanted to see what anyone/everyone else thought.
My opinion is that the increase in MoTF 2 is both a way to help melee pieces achieve the necessary power level to both compete against shooters and help balance out the factions.
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I think mainly a way to help Jedi against shooters. I think a lot of high cost Jedi were underpowered before - something like Jedi Master Kit Fisto from Galaxy at War for 60 points is way overcosted, especially for no Force Renewal or Master of the Force. Lord Vader and GOWK were way better than most of the other big Jedi. The last two big tournaments I've been to, and I think your Tennessee Regional too, we've seen squads based around Cad Bane/Thrawn (ie mainly WotC shooters) win, so I don't think that v-sets have overpowered Jedi at this point.
Before the v-sets the only big Jedi that worked at top level - mainly Lord Vader, Mara Jade Jedi, and some Republic stuff - were in factions with good movement and/or tempo control, so they could get into action without being shot to pieces first. I think the rise of the tank squad is a good thing for the game - diversity in the way squads work is good, rather than it revolving about who gets to activate last.
Another factor is power density - trying to make most of the pieces in the set strong enough to be tournament options, rather than a set of a handful of good pieces and lots of filler. I do largely agree with your list of the top pieces with Master of the Force 2, but we've seen other pieces like Nomi Sunrider and Master Kavar place at Regionals - they might not be top tier per se, but they're still tough enough to do well at big tournaments.
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Oh! And Pego added 3 in his 2+ custom sets!  . Anyway, I don't have a detailed answer to why there are more, but I would guess it's about most higher cost beats not being considered effective in todays game without renewal/MotF.
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I think it's pretty telling that 4 of the 8 competitive V-Set pieces you listed are Sith. It's a faction based around big beatsticks and WotC only gave us 3 with MotF (Bane, Sidious, Naga Sadow) who really aren't playable now because of their faction. So I think the increase is, at least mostly, going to the right places.
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Naga Sadow has always been a good piece. I'm surprised the top guns haven't done more with him in the big tourneys.
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It's incredibly simple actually; you could make the observation much broader and just say that the V-Sets in general are adding a higher number of strong pieces. And to head of the "power creep" statements, I want to point out that this isn't what power creep is. Power creep is increasing the strength of pieces, we wanted to increase the number of strong pieces. It's the only way to balance the game without creating a bunch of silver bullets or banning or errata for the powerful pieces.
For MotF more specifically, it is a way to increase the strength of some melee pieces over non-melee pieces, which has never been really balanced until recently in my opinion.
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Echo24 wrote:It's incredibly simple actually; you could make the observation much broader and just say that the V-Sets in general are adding a higher number of strong pieces. And to head of the "power creep" statements, I want to point out that this isn't what power creep is. Power creep is increasing the strength of pieces, we wanted to increase the number of strong pieces. It's the only way to balance the game without creating a bunch of silver bullets or banning or errata for the powerful pieces.
For MotF more specifically, it is a way to increase the strength of some melee pieces over non-melee pieces, which has never been really balanced until recently in my opinion. In my opinion too. +1
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thereisnotry wrote:Echo24 wrote:It's incredibly simple actually; you could make the observation much broader and just say that the V-Sets in general are adding a higher number of strong pieces. And to head of the "power creep" statements, I want to point out that this isn't what power creep is. Power creep is increasing the strength of pieces, we wanted to increase the number of strong pieces. It's the only way to balance the game without creating a bunch of silver bullets or banning or errata for the powerful pieces.
For MotF more specifically, it is a way to increase the strength of some melee pieces over non-melee pieces, which has never been really balanced until recently in my opinion. In my opinion too. +1 +2
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Echo24 wrote:It's incredibly simple actually; you could make the observation much broader and just say that the V-Sets in general are adding a higher number of strong pieces. And to head of the "power creep" statements, I want to point out that this isn't what power creep is. Power creep is increasing the strength of pieces, we wanted to increase the number of strong pieces. It's the only way to balance the game without creating a bunch of silver bullets or banning or errata for the powerful pieces.
For MotF more specifically, it is a way to increase the strength of some melee pieces over non-melee pieces, which has never been really balanced until recently in my opinion. Well I would argue that motf 2 definitely increases the strength of a piece, but I don't want to derail this into a power creep talk lol. I agree that motf 2 definitely helps balance melee vs non-melee I was just curious as to what others thought. I also agree that Sith are and have gotten a lot of the better motf 2 options, but it is pretty unique in that they are mainly powerful more for the movement they bring with FYD and battle manipulation.
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We're getting more big Jedi that are around the same level as Lord Vader and GOWK, not pieces that are surpassing them.
There were 51 pieces with a force rating, melee attack, and between 50-100 points during Wizards' tenure. The only ones that were still tournament quality in 2009-2010 were:
Lord Vader
Kyle Katarn, Jedi Battlemaster
Darth Vader, Scourge of the Jedi
General Obi-Wan Kenobi - any maybe Flobi/Grand Master Yoda too?
Yoda on Kybuck
I think the main problem was that Wizards didn't set a good benchmark for strong beatsticks.
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TheHutts wrote:We're getting more big Jedi that are around the same level as Lord Vader and GOWK, not pieces that are surpassing them.
There were 51 pieces with a force rating, melee attack, and between 50-100 points during Wizards' tenure. The only ones that were still tournament quality in 2009-2010 were:
Lord Vader
Kyle Katarn, Jedi Battlemaster
Darth Vader, Scourge of the Jedi
General Obi-Wan Kenobi - any maybe Flobi/Grand Master Yoda too?
Yoda on Kybuck
I think the main problem was that Wizards didn't set a good benchmark for strong beatsticks. I can see that, Wizards did kind of leave beats in the back and focus on other things. But I would say that the beats coming out in the vsets definitely surpass lord vader and GOWK. Zannah is in my opinion better then GOWK and costs less, lord vader suffers at the hands of Mace and yslamari. Not that this is a bad thing. I personally enjoy the fact that beats are becoming more prevalent and that its not just about who can pack in a couple of damage dealers with high act control and swap with master tact lol. I love that Bronson took like an 8 act squad without act control or lobot and came in 2nd at kokomo, great time to be a minis player.
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Echo24 wrote:And to head of the "power creep" statements, I want to point out that this isn't what power creep is. Power creep is increasing the strength of pieces, we wanted to increase the number of strong pieces. More specifically, power creep increases the ceiling, that is the maximum power of a single piece. The V-Sets have increased the number, raising the average power when all pieces are considered together.
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I think the The Force in this game has been terribly underpowered to begin with and is always over shadowed by its special ability counterpart, like LS deflect vs evade, parry vs reposte, surprise move vs intuition, greater mobile vs LS assault and so on.
If I was making vsets, every unique would have a minimum of renewal 1 and MOTF 2 just to make the force something powerful instead of the hokey religion it has turned out to be in this game
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Quote:Zannah is in my opinion better then GOWK and costs less GOWK gives a plus 4, plus 4, out and has Mettle to go along with his MoTF 2 and Soresu Mastery. He's a way better defensive piece than she is. He always adds a lot to the squads he is in, where Zannah can just be ignored. You may choose to ignore GOWK but he's at least making his presence felt with that CE. Yeah she has LCE but that's not enough for me to say, Zannah is better than GOWK.
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Voren_Chalco wrote:Echo24 wrote:And to head of the "power creep" statements, I want to point out that this isn't what power creep is. Power creep is increasing the strength of pieces, we wanted to increase the number of strong pieces. More specifically, power creep increases the ceiling, that is the maximum power of a single piece. The V-Sets have increased the number, raising the average power when all pieces are considered together. Yeah, you got it. That's a better way to put it. Power creep raises the ceiling of power, balance raises the floor so everything is closer to the same level.
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theultrastar wrote:Quote:Zannah is in my opinion better then GOWK and costs less GOWK gives a plus 4, plus 4, out and has Mettle to go along with his MoTF 2 and Soresu Mastery. He's a way better defensive piece than she is. He always adds a lot to the squads he is in, where Zannah can just be ignored. You may choose to ignore GOWK but he's at least making his presence felt with that CE. Yeah she has LCE but that's not enough for me to say, Zannah is better than GOWK. yeah she also has force bubble to auto turn away damage, is in a faction where she has access to way more force points then GOWK with sit recruits and they both do similar damage except her auto damage can keep doing damage every round and she can do more damage on the move with lightsaber assault. so is having mettle and that commander effect better then LCE, better damage on the move, better autodamage, and a lower cost... I don't personally think so. And you can just as easily ignore obi wan, its not obi wan that was tearing people up it was rex and mace doing the damage, same thing as zannah squads. so mettle and motf with renewal 1, versus mettle motf renewal 1 sith recruits, and force spirits, and force bubble.... I take zannah in the defensive category all day man.
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Echo24 wrote:Voren_Chalco wrote:Echo24 wrote:And to head of the "power creep" statements, I want to point out that this isn't what power creep is. Power creep is increasing the strength of pieces, we wanted to increase the number of strong pieces. More specifically, power creep increases the ceiling, that is the maximum power of a single piece. The V-Sets have increased the number, raising the average power when all pieces are considered together. Yeah, you got it. That's a better way to put it. Power creep raises the ceiling of power, balance raises the floor so everything is closer to the same level. and yep I love your way of putting it, but I can't agree that pieces like atton rand, mace windu, malgus, cadeus, palleon, etc did not raise that ceiling.
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coffeebean wrote:I think the The Force in this game has been terribly underpowered to begin with and is always over shadowed by its special ability counterpart, like LS deflect vs evade, parry vs reposte, surprise move vs intuition, greater mobile vs LS assault and so on.
If I was making vsets, every unique would have a minimum of renewal 1 and MOTF 2 just to make the force something powerful instead of the hokey religion it has turned out to be in this game this hits very close to where I am, but I don't think every piece should have motf 2, mainly because some force powers just don't need to be on ppl with motf 2, like eternal hatred lol. I also think more jedi should have speed abilities like knight speed to help close the gap after a shooter swaps or is towed, or w/e.
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Quote:yeah she also has force bubble to auto turn away damage, is in a faction where she has access to way more force points then GOWK with sit recruits and they both do similar damage except her auto damage can keep doing damage every round and she can do more damage on the move with lightsaber assault. so is having mettle and that commander effect better then LCE, better damage on the move, better autodamage, and a lower cost... I don't personally think so.
And you can just as easily ignore obi wan, its not obi wan that was tearing people up it was rex and mace doing the damage, same thing as zannah squads.
so mettle and motf with renewal 1, versus mettle motf renewal 1 sith recruits, and force spirits, and force bubble.... I take zannah in the defensive category all day man. Zannah isn't ran for a reason, if you want her to be good you have to build around her, but what your opponents do is ignore her and attack everything else. Win on Gambit (unless they have a way to straight up kill her with Overwhelming or Suppressive Fire) And yes she has bubble, and can get SR, but if you want to spend FP on that and Lightsaber Assault, you won't have FP's for long. And as far as recruits go, you will rarely see a Sith build with more than 2 stuck in there. No way do I think a couple recruits to help with rerolling is better than Mettle. Kenobi is a far superior defensive piece, because while Zannah is defensive, she adds nothing to the group as a whole. Kenobi not only is defensive, but he helps the overall defense of the entire group (minus commanders) and raises attacks as well. So regardless of what she can do, Kenobi will always be better because of his CE and what he brings to the group.
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theultrastar wrote:Quote:yeah she also has force bubble to auto turn away damage, is in a faction where she has access to way more force points then GOWK with sit recruits and they both do similar damage except her auto damage can keep doing damage every round and she can do more damage on the move with lightsaber assault. so is having mettle and that commander effect better then LCE, better damage on the move, better autodamage, and a lower cost... I don't personally think so.
And you can just as easily ignore obi wan, its not obi wan that was tearing people up it was rex and mace doing the damage, same thing as zannah squads.
so mettle and motf with renewal 1, versus mettle motf renewal 1 sith recruits, and force spirits, and force bubble.... I take zannah in the defensive category all day man. Zannah isn't ran for a reason, if you want her to be good you have to build around her, but what your opponents do is ignore her and attack everything else. Win on Gambit (unless they have a way to straight up kill her with Overwhelming or Suppressive Fire) And yes she has bubble, and can get SR, but if you want to spend FP on that and Lightsaber Assault, you won't have FP's for long. And as far as recruits go, you will rarely see a Sith build with more than 2 stuck in there. No way do I think a couple recruits to help with rerolling is better than Mettle. Kenobi is a far superior defensive piece, because while Zannah is defensive, she adds nothing to the group as a whole. Kenobi not only is defensive, but he helps the overall defense of the entire group (minus commanders) and raises attacks as well. So regardless of what she can do, Kenobi will always be better because of his CE and what he brings to the group. a couple of recruits is more superior to mettle in so many ways, number one when Kenobi is out of force points no reroll nothing, zannah on the other hand can reroll whenever with the sacrifice of a recruit Kenobi cant reroll against force immunity, zannah can sack a recruit. Zannah is not ran because the sith faction just has way more powerful pieces then zannah. Revan, Kaan, Malgus,Cadeus, atton are all better then her, doesn't mean that she is not defensively better then Kenobi. Kenobi commits more to a squad, well of course he does he has a commander effect that alone makes him better in a squad, but defensively he is no better then zannah. Kenobi doesn't win because of Kenobi he is in winning squads because Mace windu was so freaking powerful. Doesn't matter really in the end tho, Kenobi doesn't see anymore play then zannah. death shot squads seem to be where the Republic Faction sits currently.
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