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Trooper Squads (Game design conversation) Options
adamb0nd
Posted: Friday, August 9, 2013 9:17:11 AM
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The V-sets have sunken a lot of effort into the growth and feasibility of trooper based squads for all factions. The trooper squad has definitely improved, but it still suffers from the same issue it always has since the release of kybuck/lancer.

On one hand, it often seems detrimental to use high activation squads. The majority of your squad can be defeated in one activation by a gallop or strafe. Advanced Battle Meditation typically shuts trooper squads down. There are a lot of counters against these trooper based builds. Some people are against trooper squads, because the high activations cause for longer games, and less action.

I wanted to talk about some potential options as to how this could be fixed, or, should it be fixed?

Star Wars has always had a pulpy theme. The unique characters seem like gods, taking on swarms of storm troopers and coming out with hardly a scratch. Maybe we shouldn't attempt to make the trooper squad more feasible. Should a hand full of troopers really pose as a threat to Luke Skywalker, Yoda, Vader, or Palpatine?

On the other hand, Star wars also takes on the theme of huge battles, with lots of troops blowing each other up. To remove that aspect of the game would also be out of theme. However, this game has always been more about small select groups of characters, and not large scale foot-soldier driven battles. How much focus should we put on the non-uniques? If we make them too powerful, we have the opposite problem.

It seems like, to make this an tier 1 capable build, something needs to be changed to how we're approaching the Trooper builds. Throwing more commander effects at them isn't going to fix the problem. So what could be done? I have a few suggestions:

Trooer Pods. Like in many games, maybe we shouldn't be dealing with the individual trooper, but rather "pods of troopers". Many skirmish games use squads of units, rather than individual pieces. This may seem to go against how this game has always been played, but we do have examples of multiple characters on a base. Chewy/3p0, Luke/Leia, Ani/Padme/Reak. Would it be a stretch to have a "Trooper squad" at large or huge size that represents multiple storm troopers with better stats and more HP.

Safety in numbers. We have a couple of squad abilities, but they don't typically work well. Only one of them is based on survivability, while the others are offensive bonuses. Maybe we could look into more squad abilities that provided bonuses and allow the troopers to last a little longer. Squad cover is a good start, but could be some other special ability we haven't thought of, that could further strengthen running units in numbers and proximity?

Let um die. Troopers are expendable, after all. If a piece has a 5 point cost, it probably shouldn't be a game changer. Maybe, instead of continuing to make troopers more powerful and more survivable, we need to focus more on letting them do what they should do. Pose as a challenge, but not a true threat in and of itself. The Sith Pawn, IMHO, is a fantastic example of how this can work. Troopers support your Named Character, at a cost of their lives. I created an example of how this could be handled. With an ability like "Troop Loyalty - Whenever an ally with order 66 is defeated, this character gains +1 attack and +1 defense for the remainder of the skirmish. This bonus stacks." In this sense, we could create a better use for troopers. Does your opponent risk a kybuck murder rampage at the cost of providing a +10 attack and defense to an opponent beat stick? It would at the least give the your opponent question if its worth wiping out an enemy squad in one turn. Make the unique character more power, like in the movies, and make troopers worth playing with them, like in the movies. It would have to be handled delicately, as the example I provided could easily end with a broken character.

Death Shots - The only squad I've heard of at this point that uses troopers and stands a tier 1 fighting chance is the death shot squad. Much like my previous statement, this fits with the theme that troopers are best when they're dead. I have heard that this squad is a NPE though, and think that maybe its scratching the surface of a design option that could maybe be expanded on without dealing with the same old death shot option.

http://www.bloomilk.com/Custom/15854/general-skywalker--troop-leader
SignerJ
Posted: Friday, August 9, 2013 9:29:48 AM
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I'd go with the Safety in Numbers option or the Let them Die option. The game definitely does not need more cheap Death Shots, and Trooper Pods is a road that I don't think this minis game should go down.

I'd rather you build up the strength of the masses, so that stuff like Grenades, Missiles, etc. are slightly more reasonable; not to mention, it makes sense that Stormies are stronger in groups of ten or fifteen than by themselves.

If you MUST go with the Let them Die option, then I'd prefer something like Troop Loyalty -- though, to be honest, I don't like this idea that much.
markedman247
Posted: Friday, August 9, 2013 10:55:29 AM
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Safety in Numbers: "Each non-Unique Trooper of equal or less cost of this unit gains 10 HP for every trooper within 4 squares." :)
adamb0nd
Posted: Friday, August 9, 2013 11:24:22 AM
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markedman247 wrote:
Safety in Numbers: "Each non-Unique Trooper of equal or less cost of this unit gains 10 HP for every trooper within 4 squares." :)


I do like the idea of beefing up troopers with HP. We play a game where having less than 40 HP on the majority of your pieces means auto-defeat to certain builds. But we have never had an ability in the game that increased hp total. I am not sure why that is, but my guess is that its difficult to track. In this situation, a character could have a bunch of extra HP, move, and die because his HP total lowers. I think the v-set designers might be concerned that it becomes to difficult to track... that being said, maybe not. We have an all time high for abilities that must be tracked; poison, burning, corruption, random +1's and -1's that stack with each other based on any number of triggers. Maybe HP boosts aren't impossible.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, August 9, 2013 11:36:08 AM
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adamb0nd wrote:
markedman247 wrote:
Safety in Numbers: "Each non-Unique Trooper of equal or less cost of this unit gains 10 HP for every trooper within 4 squares." :)


I do like the idea of beefing up troopers with HP. We play a game where having less than 40 HP on the majority of your pieces means auto-defeat to certain builds. But we have never had an ability in the game that increased hp total. I am not sure why that is, but my guess is that its difficult to track. In this situation, a character could have a bunch of extra HP, move, and die because his HP total lowers. I think the v-set designers might be concerned that it becomes to difficult to track... that being said, maybe not. We have an all time high for abilities that must be tracked; poison, burning, corruption, random +1's and -1's that stack with each other based on any number of triggers. Maybe HP boosts aren't impossible.


I would vote against increasing HP, just as in general I'm against abilities that require tracking.

Something that would produce a similar effect:

Close Call: If this character has 20 or more hit points when defeated, this character has 10 hit points instead of being defeated and may not be attacked for the rest of the turn.

Safety in Numbers: Allied troopers within 6 squares of another allied trooper gain Close Call. (Or do it through a commander effect.)
Cassus fett
Posted: Friday, August 9, 2013 12:12:30 PM
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Flying arrow's abilities are good but they're just retooled a avoid defeat/ Escape Death. Troopers do need to become more viable I'm just not quite sure how yet. I'll get thinking on it though.
dreadtech
Posted: Friday, August 9, 2013 12:24:55 PM
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Most troopers are still shooters and shooters are still powerful with multiples activations and all the support in commander effects they can gain, not all factions have things like the lancer, and even those factions do not use those every time.

I still think squads have the advantage. particularly as there are more options amongst them.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, August 9, 2013 12:46:42 PM
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Cassus fett wrote:
Flying arrow's abilities are good but they're just retooled a avoid defeat/ Escape Death. Troopers do need to become more viable I'm just not quite sure how yet. I'll get thinking on it though.


It's the same wording as Avoid Defeat/Escape Death so it's easy to see how it works, but there are two big changes. No save - it's automatic as long as you weren't already on your last 10hp. And you can't be attacked again the same turn, so a Twin Attacker can't kill you twice in the same turn, for example. The advantage of doing it this way is that you get two-turn survivability without having to boost either hit points or defense. I think that's significant for a trooper swarm. These guys *should* go down easily - they're troopers. So you don't want to boost their defense and/or hit points to the point that they are actually hard to kill. At the same time, if they go down in one turn of a strafe or gallop, they're useless. Of course, they'd still be susceptible to an end-of-round strafe followed by a beginning-of-round strafe, but if it's a trooper swarm it should in general out-activate the opponent to prevent that from happening.
Sithborg
Posted: Friday, August 9, 2013 1:07:08 PM
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My thoughts:

1. Make them immune to Gallop and Strafe. Make a commander that makes troopers unattackable by Gallop and Strafe. Doesn't necessarily have to be a CE, but making Troopers, while leaving all the other fodder you have, immune to those two abilities will solve about 70% of Trooper issues.

2. More Combined Fire bonuses. Combined Fire is perhaps the cheap, generic trooper's best advantage. When you have a bunch, that extra +4 Atk really helps. And I'm not talking about making it a swarmier version of the Commando Sniper. But more effects like Jerjerrod's CE, or Bail's CE. Using 3 Troopers to make one tough hit, is sort of where they can function.

3. Gang like abilities. I think Gang is a great thing for Troopers, to really swarm an opposing piece.

And then there are my really insane ideas, that I would like to see for swarms. Bringing in more each time a figure of the swarm dies, even if it is a crappier version.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, August 9, 2013 1:25:02 PM
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Sithborg wrote:
My thoughts:

1. Make them immune to Gallop and Strafe. Make a commander that makes troopers unattackable by Gallop and Strafe. Doesn't necessarily have to be a CE, but making Troopers, while leaving all the other fodder you have, immune to those two abilities will solve about 70% of Trooper issues.

2. More Combined Fire bonuses. Combined Fire is perhaps the cheap, generic trooper's best advantage. When you have a bunch, that extra +4 Atk really helps. And I'm not talking about making it a swarmier version of the Commando Sniper. But more effects like Jerjerrod's CE, or Bail's CE. Using 3 Troopers to make one tough hit, is sort of where they can function.

3. Gang like abilities. I think Gang is a great thing for Troopers, to really swarm an opposing piece.

And then there are my really insane ideas, that I would like to see for swarms. Bringing in more each time a figure of the swarm dies, even if it is a crappier version.


All excellent! Even what you called insane. As long as the new pieces are the worst troopers, start in the starting zone, and are still worth points when killed, I like that. It lets the trooper squad maintain its activation advantage, keep its squad abilities (assuming they move them forward quickly enough), etc.

I'm a little bit scared of the 4 point, 40dmg charging snowtroopers we're going to have now with Daala and the new Snowtrooper Officer.
swinefeld
Posted: Friday, August 9, 2013 1:36:57 PM
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^ +1 Combining fire and swarming is what cheap troopers should be doing.


Some random thoughts:

[Whenever (this / an allied X) character is defeated by an enemy, that enemy gets -1 Defense for the rest of the round. (this ability stacks)]

Mass kill pieces especially become more vulnerable to retaliation the more pieces they kill in a turn. Resets next round so no major bookkeeping.


Maybe something that increases the enemy's movement cost that turn when it defeats troopers.


Squad Distraction [This character gains Distraction while 3 allies with the same name are within 6 squares]

some kind of disruptive effect, anyway.

Sithborg
Posted: Friday, August 9, 2013 3:22:30 PM
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That is an aspect of the Swarm that I think is really missing. You should keep getting more. Reserves and even Immediate Reserves are nice, but not the most reliable. Had an idea that added more figures you could bring in when you got Reserves. But something a bit more automatic would be better, if tougher to balance. I had a fun idea with an Ewok that when you lost an Ewok character, you immediately gained a new Ewok (Rebel Storm). But bringing in a few characters like that automatically each round, could be fun.

The only issue is that with the CE's available to some of these characters, it wouldn't be the best idea. Ewoks and Droids can get kind of crazy (never ending Battle Droids could be fun, if not for the silliness some of them can do). Lets all be honest here. Rakghouls are FUN. I don't see how spawning a decent amount of cheaper grunts would be harmful.

Especially if you leave some of the older, less seen swarm killers in play. Make Force Repulse, Lightsaber Sweep, Force Burst the threat to swarms, not Strafe and Galloping.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, August 9, 2013 3:24:45 PM
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I like the spawning idea. If it's a 1 for 1 swap, and it's the weakest version of the trooper, the squad isn't ever going to get more powerful. It's then the opponent's job to get to the commanders before their whole squad is defeated.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, August 9, 2013 3:26:53 PM
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One of the biggest hindrances to combining fire is getting pieces in position to do it. Stick your neck out one round so you have LoS for combining fire. Then you're dead before you actually combine fire. Why not an SA to get someone into position?

Coordinated Shot: Before this character attacks, an ally within 6 squares may move up to its speed if it combines fire with this character.
AndyHatton
Posted: Friday, August 9, 2013 3:32:04 PM
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Or maybe something that lets them move after combining fire

Hit and Run: if this character combines fire they may immediately move up to their speed after the attack resolves.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, August 9, 2013 3:44:17 PM
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AndyHatton wrote:
Or maybe something that lets them move after combining fire

Hit and Run: if this character combines fire they may immediately move up to their speed after the attack resolves.


Better than nothing, but doesn't solve the problem of moving into position and being killed that same round before you can combine fire the next round.
AndyHatton
Posted: Friday, August 9, 2013 3:46:32 PM
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It at least lets you set up the round before (especially in a heavy activation squad) and get the heck out of Dodge before being shot to pieces.
komix
Posted: Friday, August 9, 2013 11:51:57 PM
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Squad Awareness/Stick Tight! [If this character has at least 3 allied characters with the same name then enemy cannot use Galloping Attack or Strafe Attack on him]

The idea behind is that if u move ur squad together and keep them tight they will live long enough to fire at the enemy, not be killed in 1 run.
sharron
Posted: Saturday, August 10, 2013 1:27:51 AM
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Or use shields? Or something that works along these lines

"When 4 or more trooper allies are within 6 squares, allied trooper characters (including this character) gain shields 2."

That would make strafe and gallop less effective, especially on troopers with more than 10 hp.
SignerJ
Posted: Saturday, August 10, 2013 3:41:36 AM
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sharron wrote:
Or use shields? Or something that works along these lines

"When 4 or more trooper allies are within 6 squares, allied trooper characters (including this character) gain shields 2."

That would make strafe and gallop less effective, especially on troopers with more than 10 hp.


That is a bad idea. Don't forget, it would work on more than just Strafers.
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