I've long disliked Rob's glossary change (essentially an errata) years ago to the ysalamiri ability that made it stronger and simpler. But the right solution to the problem has always been difficult to come by. The primary issue with how it works is the extension of the bubble well beyond the 6 square range via providing Force Immunity to shooters, who really have no business having force immunity on their shots. The additional issue is that Force Immunity was created for the Vong first, it was added to the ysalamiri definition later. So it's not a perfect representation, and game wise it creates a lot of bad interactions. Just for obvious example, standing next to thrawn and shooting across a room at a jedi no where near thrawn should in no way prevent the use of Lightsaber deflect. For reference, here are the two abilities together.

Force Immunity: Enemies cannot affect this character with Force powers, or spend Force points to reroll attacks against this character or to respond to this character's attacks and abilities

Ysalamiri: Characters within 6 squares cannot spend Force points. This character and characters within 6 squares gain Force Immunity.

There are really three ways to address this as simply as possible.

Option 1: Errata Ysalamiri directly.
Ysalamiri: Characters within 6 squares cannot spend Force points. This character and characters within 6 squares gain Force Immunity when it is not their turn.

A little bit strange at first, but it addresses the primary issues. They are still completely protected from all force powers used on them, but lose the immunity when making attacks, etc.

Option 2: Errata Force Immunity Directly.
Force Immunity: Enemies cannot affect this character with Force powers, or spend Force points to reroll attacks against this character.

Notice the deletion of "respond to this character's attacks and abilities" - The issue here is that while it would fix the Ysalamiri issue, it makes the Vong weaker. I'm not opposed to that however, because many have long considered the idea that a jedi can't use block on a Vong to be a gross inaccuracy.

Option 3:
Remove Force Immunity from Ysalamiri entirely, and issue a new glossary for it without Force Immunity (a special ability) in it at all, and instead a weaker version that isn't named. This sort of combines parts of both and rewrites it entirely. Looks like this.

Ysalamiri: This character gains Force Immunity. Characters within 6 squares cannot spend Force points and enemies cannot affect this character with Force powers, or spend Force points to reroll attacks against this character.

This last one keeps the intent that I believe Rob had for the ability. But it eliminates the silliness of no deflect outside the bubble.

Your thoughts? Which do you prefer? Do you think its a good idea to errata Ysal at all, or should we never open the errata from WotC rules door at all?

One caveat to that, because this ability was essentially errata'ed by Rob (he didn't like that Exar could transfer into the bubble) through a glossary rewrite that IMO was never more than a very limited fix, there's room in this one case to call this a special case, that doesn't lead us down a slippery slope.

Here are my IMHOs:
1. Not ideal, because it's too counter-intuitive.
2. I like it, but since the Vong have been designed with a full-on meaning of Force Immunity in mind, I think the Vong should not be hindered by the new ruling.
3. I think this one is the best one. The last phrase ("...or spend FP to rr attacks against this character") is there simply for force-using shooters, right?

Yes!! This was going to be the next poll I did!!!

#3 could be worded better, but the intent is sound.

I agree with TINT on #2. And #1...I'm worried it would allow for some unforseen exploitations. AoOs, for example, or even cannon CEs.

I would vote 2, but I would definitely take 3 over 1. Even though it's never really affected me, the massive overreach of Force Immunity is my biggest issue with Minis.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Swinefeld on this point: I have a question about option 3: unless I'm misreading, it seems like a character with Force Lightning would be able to target someone within 6 squares of the character with Ysalamiri if they themselves were further than 6 squares away.

For the record, I'm okay with breaking the 'WotC errata' rule here, but I think that this should probably be the one-time exception to that rule.

@TINT: With the heated arguments that have happened on other threads, I want to say right now that I ask this out of genuine curiosity and not sarcasm: Is there any specific example you could think of in which enabling the defensive Force powers (LS Defense/Block/Deflect/Riposte/etc.) to work against Vong would be super bad for them? I don't have much experience with the Vong, so I'm just trying to figure out how bad that would be for them.

This would be more complicated, but maybe (if something like #2 is chosen) would it work to say that force powers whose name contains Lightsaber ignore Force Immunity? Thematically, Force Bubble still wouldn't work against Vong.

Characters within 6 squares cannot spend force points. This character and characters within 6 squares cannot be targeted by force powers (However, an enemy more than 6 squares away can still spend 1 force point to reroll a failed attack).

Considering that the only change that has been made to what WotC left us was reverting SSM back from its errata version to the card, that does seem like a very clean change. Just change it back to a previous WotC definition.

If changing WotC opens a bag of worms, this only opens that bag of worms a little bit... lets out one worm and then closes it again.

You could still affect people with untargeted powers like Repulse, Unleash the Force, Transfer Essence, etc.

Allowing Jedi to use force points (not just defensive force powers) vs the Vong would change a lot. Right now the Vong are a solid counter to jedi squads...a single thud bug save can decide a whole round of combat, for example. But allowing force users to use fprr's (or Block/Riposte) vs the Vong makes the Vong FAR less dominant over jedi than they used to be.

I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but it's not the end result we're looking for. We're not looking to hinder/nerf the Vong, but we are looking to make Ysalamiri work properly.

Whenever making changes like this, we always need to be wary of unintended consequences. That's all I was saying.

I like that a lot...even more than Bill's #3, which was my favorite up to this point.

We'll still have that whole discussion of what it means to be "affected" by a force power...ie, an Imperial shooter is "affected" if GOWK can fprr his SSM save, because now GOWK can live long enough to chase down said shooter. But that's a tongue-in-cheek example, lol. Really, as far as I'm aware, this issue of defining what things are and are not hindered by Ysalamiri has been somewhat nebulous for a while.

i would say that "affected by" means damage, stat changes, movement or gaining/losing SAs by a force power.

The only clarifications needed are what force powers affect the wielder and which affect the target which we have already dealt with.

Lightsaber throw affects the wielder by allowing him to make 2 attacks at range. Even with the current wording of Ysalimiri you can throw into the bubble. Sith rage also affects the wielder. Lightsaber sweep also only affects the wielder.

Lighting, push, transfer essence, throw, pull, repulse all affect the target/victim. These would not be able to affect a figure within ysalimiri with the proposed new wording.


Essentially, all i've done is gone back to WotCs original Ysalimiri definition and made it so that non-targeting force powers (like transfer essence, which is why it was changed anyway) don't do anything inside the bubble.

Its what should have happened in the first place IMO.