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On SHNN last night, a lot of talk was about the top squads right now being the Double swap or the Speratist Durge on Lancer squads. I enjoy discussions about the meta, but it just seems to me that we are talking too much recently about errata'ing pieces and right now without considering how V10 will shape it. A lot of the really good squads right now are shooter heavy (look at how much squads have Boba). V10 I think will really affect the meta in a positive way in limiting the effectiveness of shooters. Obi/Ani....Yaddle.....heck even the Vset 10 Qui Gonn post Ysalmiri change makes republic jedi squads quite good vs shooters. The Imperial double swap squads recieve a huge blow if you have Aves.
I guess I am just getting a bit concerned that we are all trying to change the meta via errata's before seeing what Vset 10 will do. And this argument can be had for any future Vsets, not just V10. Some peices needed to be changed, like Poggle and Ysalmiri. Some others are being addressed, like the Neo Crusader Officer. But I think based off of what I was hearing in last nights SHNN episode, a errata to the Imperial Governor seems to me a bit premature. I think its cool we discovered a new top squad, i just am afraid we are over reacting to it before we see what Vsets are doing to change the meta.
So how does everyone else think that Vset 10 will affect the meta? Should we be as worried about the top squads that are currently being run post Vset 10?
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I would always prefer a design solution or competitive pressure to shift the meta, rather than errata or banning. However, the last couple of years have taught us that sometimes we can't wait for the meta to respond; we have to take quicker, more decisive action. That's why I'm glad we now have a balance team in place, to figure out what type of action is most appropriate in each case.
Something I think a lot of people don't realize is that, as designers, we are a year behind the meta at a minimum. That's just how the timeline shakes out. So even with a directed design response to whatever the issue is perceived to be, that solution won't hit the meta for many months, by which time some new "problem" will probably have emerged. So we are always trying to strike a balance between addressing the current issues and trying to predict what the issues will be down the road (and just coming up with new cool stuff).
As far as set 10--I don't think we have a ton of bombshell pieces that are going to shake things up right away, although there are a few. One of the things we focused on was looking at areas that needed development within specific factions. So some of these pieces have the potential to shift the way their own faction plays, which could play out in a number of interesting ways.
The thing is, the meta never really stays still for very long anymore. People get bored and want to try something new, or people figure out counters that make the dominant squad less attractive. Some things are always going to be strong, but that doesn't mean those same things will remain on top indefinitely. There certainly are a few things in 10 that could help to bring that about for some of the top squads, but I also think the game already has answers that maybe aren't being fully utilized. 10 might help those things be optimized, or the meta might have already moved on by the time the new pieces take hold. Hard to see the future is. It's an exciting time for the game.
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Thanks for sharing Mando, and reflecting on the state of things. I'd have to agree, when it rains, it pours - there's been a lot of sudden burst of activity hehe, which has been great to see. True, Mando, as a vocal "critic" of how the game had become highly technical, coupled with ultra optimisation min-maxer mindset (ie, a lot of 'auto-include' Hobson's choice pieces which were must haves to be able to have a 'competitive' game, and a conscious shift of SWMinis towards the MtG model...) It has been pleasant to see some of the shifts in the recent months, with welcomed errata and a few neat new pieces (including team-up duo pieces, which felt like a borrowing from Heroclix conceptually, and looking at heroclix, the teamup pieces weren't used ultra often due to the points cost and other more competitive options ) New pieces and new never before seen abilities, and more pieces from the "why didn't WotC ever get around to making that one?" pile, its all awesome. |that, and as I've said from day-dot, like a broken record its a take-it-or-leave-it dimension to VSet pieces - a lot of folks have never heard of em, so they don't have to be 'set in stone', and if people didn't like VSet pieces, they don't have to play with them or can make tournaments/events where VSet pieces are not 'legal'|  I also empathise with what you're reflecting here, that too many changes one after another might lead to unforeseen meta shifts as well - which would defeat the purpose of having initially made the changes (to prevent some distorted broken combos and to prevent wild shifts). It's at a point where 'wait and see' might be prudent, and no glaringly outstanding potential broken combos appear to be in store for VSet 10 in a post Ysalamiri and de-poggled era. Most factions have at least one or two staple "competitive" options, Vong are still ridiculously powerful with VSet enhancements, but, defeatable Ysalamiri squads are less of a nuisance Trooper "Deathshot" squads, still annoying but not as breaky/janky... Fewer superstealth options, and more ways around that will be welcomed. Melee will still be at a disadvantage to flow breaking shooty squads, but... Melee oughta be at a slight disadvantage to Shooty squads anyways (if we think about it with extrinsic real-world knowledge hehe) - just not to the extreme where most Melee or beatstick StarWarsy squads are punished or auto-loss prospects. Separatist squads and droid builds will be a little less scary, but they're still like Farnsworth from Futurama - they've got so many options they can lose a few doomsday machines and still be feared hehehe (and from local experiences, a lot of seps players need to get real about that and cut the kavetching; Seps have had a great faction for a long time, and no-one is nerfing the faction at the moment. When stuff like GG:DAC and Loathsom get nerfed, Wat Tambor, Lobot, Lancers, X-1 Vipers etc... come crying then ). VSet 10 looks to be bringing fringe squads back, and a few have tried Boba in new combos with Yobuck etc New boba plus Paralysis, Corruption or Pawn of the Darkside could be a future NPE... (kinda like infinite stacking skips and reversal in a two-player game of Uno...) So, long story short, definitely cautiously optimistic, that, and having seen a resurgence of new gamers picking up SWMinis and coming to the game, it looks like there'll be lots of fun in star wars minis yet to come (touch wood, I hope I don't jinx it hehe) NB: I look forward to seeing TheHutts et al making some post VSet 10 assays and reflection, it's great to see their stats reflections and where they think things are at.
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If you look at the trends in the recent vassal and NZ tourneys you will notice that since poggle has gone, lobot, gha nacht, and marn have been dominating the final builds.
Double boba swap is very strong, OR pilots are strong, NR Lukes Art class is strong, Daala is on the fringe. Grievous wheel bike and snipers.
The theme is max activations with big killers on the end of it.
Even making a hard limit of 3 per activation will not really solve the issue, that comes from damage mitigation.
What the game has to become more of is one of attrition rather than first strike nuke wins the game.
I don't think its far away but having Gha Nacht as a top table piece purely because he can spam 2 point mice is ridiculous. A hard cap of 3 per activation puts him into the place he should be, a discount on more expensive droids rather than a mouse droid wholesaler.
Its likely people will still bring lobot and Marn and spam activations but the top end is lower. When that lowers then more traditionally high activation squads (ones that don't rely on gha Spam) will appear. Swap go back to spamming brutes, a variety of 3 point pieces see the board. Sep squads will likely bring gha and battle droids. all more preferable than who can dump the more mouse shit on the board. Its kind of...well....poop.
Without changes to the floor rules i feel the game will just be a variation of what it is now just with one or two different tools. Perhaps a Rebel Pilot squad shows up. Perhaps the OR gets a couple of cheaper pilots. Different pieces get seen like Corde and suppressive fire pieces but the engine of Gha, lobot etc remains and I think it shouldn't be that way. Mice are tough enough without being the cheapest piece on the board.
The main fact to bear here is that any floor rule changes are positive. Lowering activations, increasing survivability, allowing persistent engagement rather than first strike loses which tends to stall games.
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If we designed the set well - hopefully approximately like this:
Power 11 = 0 pieces
Power 10 = 5 pieces
Power 9 = 8 pieces
Power 8 = 14 pieces
Power 7 = 14 pieces
Power 6 = 8 pieces
Power 5 = 5 pieces
Power 1-4 = 0 pieces
(And for those who prefer words to numbers - below is the the guide)
1 - Useless. In any squad, there is a better option to do the same thing. Waste of plastic, paper, brain cells.
2 - Unplayable. While not strictly replaced by another piece, in any squad (even at a casual level) there is a better use for the points.
3 - Casual only. Interesting enough that you might want to pull it out for a casual game, but it will make your squad worse - even in a casual game.
4 - Mediocre/below average - If these pieces are in a competitive squad, they are making the squad worse.
5 - Average - Still almost always a better piece to go to, but in the perfect scenario it could be the right call
6 - Situationally good. You might see this piece in a competitive game, but it's either a reinforcements-only option or it really only fits into one specific build.
7 - Barely Competitive. These pieces are not out of place in a Tier 1 squad, but they are not pieces you would build around. Probably need synergy to work well.
8 - Decently competitive - can be found in tier 1 squads, but doesn't necessarily define the squad type
9 - Solidly competitive - can be the key that makes several squads tier 1
10 -Very strong, Undoubtedly competitive. These are pieces so strong that you build squads around them
11 - Stupid. Power piece. Pieces that get complaints about being broken. Strong tech pieces that show up in squad after squad after squad.
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fingersandteeth wrote:If you look at the trends in the recent vassal and NZ tourneys you will notice that since poggle has gone, lobot, gha nacht, and marn have been dominating the final builds.
The theme is max activations with big killers on the end of it.
Even making a hard limit of 3 per activation will not really solve the issue, that comes from damage mitigation.
What the game has to become more of is one of attrition rather than first strike nuke wins the game.
I haven't played in two years, so this is all pure ignorance, but the incredible popularity of Boba Assassin plus tech sort of confuses me. It's basically the old Rebel squad with Han, just that Boba is a lot better than Han and can be slotted into any faction. If the most popular squads are mass activation plus one non-insanely-durable attacker, isn't the obvious response to play Yobuck/lancer/wheelbike(?!)? The old slow lancer squad was conceptually the same thing you're talking about (max activations, big killer), except that the lancer was backed up with twin attack IG-86s and the cretinous Poggle bombs (which is way more attacking backup than Boba has in the double swap squad), and Yobuck was always an extremely difficult matchup. The meta honestly sounds pretty dumb right now. You have Boba plus activation squads, superstealth squads (largely existing to counter Boba), and Talon Karrde squads that invariable feature Boba and Mira (who cancels superstealth for Boba). Now Bill has posted a Yobuck plus Boba squad that more or less exists purely to beat more tech-extreme versions of, you guessed it, Boba squads. Maybe we'll all be surprised at Gencon, but assuming otherwise, when was the last time one piece showed up in such a high percent of the best squads?
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fingersandteeth wrote:
The main fact to bear here is that any floor rule changes are positive. Lowering activations, increasing survivability, allowing persistent engagement rather than first strike loses which tends to stall games.
hate to say it because i know people are going to get butt hurt, but i really cant help but feel pride in the fact that Legends has done this already and it really is fun, it is a blast. Especially the "Persistent engagement" part. THAT IS THE KEY to having fun. I really think that V-set 11's mini set should all be good melee attackers that start sub factions or help sub-factions or all pretty decent survivers on their own. OR Pilots?? why are they the face of OR? why cant it be Army of Light? or Revan's Strike Force? or something friggin sweet like that. Anyway, if you want more persistent engagement and lower activations you will create a flood of unique melee pieces that can survive (I am not talking about one piece that helps multiple pieces, I am talking about lots of inherent pieces that can do it on their own or only help a sub faction). I swear I would love it if 3pt wins were really 5 pt wins. 5 pts for winning with 200+ points of gambit. 3 pts for winning with less than 200 points of gambit 1 pt if someone does not reach 100 points of gambit. HAHA that would make things interesting.
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greentime wrote:fingersandteeth wrote:If you look at the trends in the recent vassal and NZ tourneys you will notice that since poggle has gone, lobot, gha nacht, and marn have been dominating the final builds.
The theme is max activations with big killers on the end of it.
Even making a hard limit of 3 per activation will not really solve the issue, that comes from damage mitigation.
What the game has to become more of is one of attrition rather than first strike nuke wins the game.
I haven't played in two years, so this is all pure ignorance, but the incredible popularity of Boba Assassin plus tech sort of confuses me. It's basically the old Rebel squad with Han, just that Boba is a lot better than Han and can be slotted into any faction. If the most popular squads are mass activation plus one non-insanely-durable attacker, isn't the obvious response to play Yobuck/lancer/wheelbike(?!)? The old slow lancer squad was conceptually the same thing you're talking about (max activations, big killer), except that the lancer was backed up with twin attack IG-86s and the cretinous Poggle bombs (which is way more attacking backup than Boba has in the double swap squad), and Yobuck was always an extremely difficult matchup. The meta honestly sounds pretty dumb right now. You have Boba plus activation squads, superstealth squads (largely existing to counter Boba), and Talon Karrde squads that invariable feature Boba and Mira (who cancels superstealth for Boba). Now Bill has posted a Yobuck plus Boba squad that more or less exists purely to beat more tech-extreme versions of, you guessed it, Boba squads. Maybe we'll all be surprised at Gencon, but assuming otherwise, when was the last time one piece showed up in such a high percent of the best squads? Every year. With lobot
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true; lobot's always been there -when does 'prune face' get to shine hehehe Seriously though, for such a minor character, Lobot is in a lot of SWMinis games, competitive or otherwise. If people take away Lobot from Seps, on top of Gha Nachkt and Poggle changes, I think a lot of droid/seps players will get annoyed - easy solve; recost Wat Tambor 'competitively'. Q.E.D.
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jen'ari wrote:fingersandteeth wrote:
The main fact to bear here is that any floor rule changes are positive. Lowering activations, increasing survivability, allowing persistent engagement rather than first strike loses which tends to stall games.
hate to say it but......blah blah blah Except you don't hate to say it as the rest of the repetitive drawl clearly spells out. You say it at every opportunity. I can't be assed to repeat the same thing over and over and over again but you guys changes so many core rules it's pointless you contributing to the forward progress of this game of yoi insist on making these comparisons. We didn't make Rex, or Gha or mice. However, we also chose not to change them for forward continuity. For the old rule book to be relavent. But it doesn't stop you from harping on with your crap playing a different game. I'm so done with the persistent negativity from the same people on the same issues over and over and over...
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+1 to what Deri said.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I tried the Legacy format, and I found it lacking. I signed up for the first Legacy Vassal tournament and didn't even consider the second. It was like playing a whole new game...and if I want to learn a new game, it will actually be a new game, not a re-hash of an old one.
So please, stop coming onto Standard discussions and saying that Legacy is better, or that Standard should learn some lessons from Legacy, or whatever. Speaking for myself, if I wanted to play Legacy, I would...but I'm not, because I don't.
I'll just call it as a see it: the Legacy SWM format is a separate game from regular SWM. Therefore, please keep Legacy discussions out of these forums. If you don't like the developments you see in the Standard format, then that's fine...but if you don't play Standard, then why comment? It just seems like baiting to me.
(BTW, I agree with the other designers here: no ability is a problem if it is on a sub-competitive piece. GMA as a special ability is fine anyway...if you don't like it, blame WotC, not the designers.)
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fingersandteeth wrote:jen'ari wrote:fingersandteeth wrote:
The main fact to bear here is that any floor rule changes are positive. Lowering activations, increasing survivability, allowing persistent engagement rather than first strike loses which tends to stall games.
hate to say it but......blah blah blah Except you don't hate to say it as the rest of the repetitive drawl clearly spells out. You say it at every opportunity. I can't be assed to repeat the same thing over and over and over again but you guys changes so many core rules it's pointless you contributing to the forward progress of this game of yoi insist on making these comparisons. We didn't make Rex, or Gha or mice. However, we also chose not to change them for forward continuity. For the old rule book to be relavent. But it doesn't stop you from harping on with your crap playing a different game. I'm so done with the persistent negativity from the same people on the same issues over and over and over... oh geez man, get over yourself. I am not being negative at all (I am guessing since you quoted me you are referring to me). I am being positive. Why would I have reason not to be? Things are going my way ;) Things are slowly moving towards good change. If you admit it that would be great, if you don't admit it that is great as well. Truth is truth regardless the source after all. So you can suck an egg for all I care. Everything people are asking for falls under TN wish list. It is wonderful to see. ESPECIALLY since we have received so much crap for it through the years (Yes, literally years). It is wonderful to see a lot of our hard work be taken into consideration even if it took atmsalad and Lou to get it done. hahaha I can still revel in the fact that we have been fighting for it for forever. Even if people did not completely listen to us at first, little subtle changes in designing and philosophy have come to pass. It's awesome!! So I am very positive. I think set at around set 12 things might have come full circle. I would say TN has led the charge from under the scenes for more positive change than anyone else. I know you guys "made the decision" hahaha, but we were the pressure. Now I can just sit back, watch and hopefully things will be on a great course and the game grows and everyone is comfortable and trusts those in charge and blah blah blah.
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Mando wrote:...... So how does everyone else think that Vset 10 will affect the meta? Should we be as worried about the top squads that are currently being run post Vset 10? We talked at NZ Champs a little about Aves - I was saying that I don't know if I'd run Thrawn in a major tournament with Aves running around, but other players thought that he wasn't such a big deal, so it'll be interesting to see how he works. It's always interesting with counter pieces to see how much they'll actually get played. At 29 points he's far from an auto-include, and you have to drop an attacker to include him, but he's definitely worthwhile if you're expecting to see heavy CE squads, so it could go either way. I find that often in this game it's better to be the pro-active person than the defensive player. ObiKin is interesting too - he got a bunch of playtests, but I don't know how good he'll be in practice. Large base and 85 points is hard to work with. If anything, I think you'll probably see stuff like Morrigan Corde and Evazan.
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greentime wrote:If the most popular squads are mass activation plus one non-insanely-durable attacker, isn't the obvious response to play Yobuck/lancer/wheelbike(?!)? I'm kind of interested to see how Imperial double swap goes against Yobuck. My plan was to use a diplomat wall against Yobuck - I can set myself in and outactivate you, then get 18 with the Amanin, then 12 and opening a door with Lobot, and then 6 and triple with Boba, then auto-win initiative. I never got to try it in practice though. It's maybe map dependent. It's also very hard to kill Yobuck with Boba - it would take me two full rounds of shots, both with Opportunist. But the double swap gives the Imperials some extra board range, which is significant - I just don't know how it plays out.
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TheHutts wrote:greentime wrote:If the most popular squads are mass activation plus one non-insanely-durable attacker, isn't the obvious response to play Yobuck/lancer/wheelbike(?!)? I'm kind of interested to see how Imperial double swap goes against Yobuck. My plan was to use a diplomat wall against Yobuck - I can set myself in and outactivate you, then get 18 with the Amanin, then 12 and opening a door with Lobot, and then 6 and triple with Boba, then auto-win initiative. I never got to try it in practice though. It's maybe map dependent. It's also very hard to kill Yobuck with Boba - it would take me two full rounds of shots, both with Opportunist. But the double swap gives the Imperials some extra board range, which is significant - I just don't know how it plays out. I played yobuck at lower hutt graham, i beat double swap in round robin because paul made his dominate save. in the semis he pasted me, and on bothan there was nothing I could do. even if i had played it properly, boba could still take out panaka first round, and mas at the start of the second.
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sharron wrote:I played yobuck at lower hutt graham, i beat double swap in round robin because paul made his dominate save. in the semis he pasted me, and on bothan there was nothing I could do. even if i had played it properly, boba could still take out panaka first round, and mas at the start of the second. I sat down and spent about an hour counting squares on various popular maps and pretty much have to agree with this statement. There literally isn't a safe refuge to put your squishy, vital commanders/auxiliaries on most of these maps. And that isn't a criticism of the maps! 30 squares of movement prior to attacker swapping in is just way, way too much. Against squads it massively outactivates (hey, like Yobuck!) double swap can also bring in TWO anamin scouts, for 36 squares of wall-climbing movement. That literally gets Boba LOS to every single square on almost every single map. What an aggravating situation. Double swap tears apart squads that rely on tech, because you simply cannot hide from Boba without incredible measures (huge amounts of bodyguards, multiple locked doors, very specific ridiculous map spots). But if you bring a beef cannon squad you just get bogged down trying to kill 15 mouse droids while Boba shoots you six times a turn. Even Mace won't hold up very long against that kind of pounding. Serious question - when the Thrawn+governor squad came up in playtesting, what did people do to beat it? Because I'm kind of drawing a blank.
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sharron wrote:I played yobuck at lower hutt graham, i beat double swap in round robin because paul made his dominate save. in the semis he pasted me, and on bothan there was nothing I could do. even if i had played it properly, boba could still take out panaka first round, and mas at the start of the second. I forgot you guys played it, which is funny because I was watching the key moments of the first game. IMO, dominating Thrawn reliably is too much movement. I'd rather see the CE on the Imperial Governor for followers only - even then you'd still have a 60% chance of dominating Thrawn, but I think it gets too unreliable to build a squad around. It's not like Thrawn is terrible without him.
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thereisnotry wrote:+1 to what Deri said.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I tried the Legacy format, and I found it lacking. I signed up for the first Legacy Vassal tournament and didn't even consider the second. It was like playing a whole new game...and if I want to learn a new game, it will actually be a new game, not a re-hash of an old one.
So please, stop coming onto Standard discussions and saying that Legacy is better, or that Standard should learn some lessons from Legacy, or whatever. Speaking for myself, if I wanted to play Legacy, I would...but I'm not, because I don't.
I'll just call it as a see it: the Legacy SWM format is a separate game from regular SWM. Therefore, please keep Legacy discussions out of these forums. If you don't like the developments you see in the Standard format, then that's fine...but if you don't play Standard, then why comment? It just seems like baiting to me.
(BTW, I agree with the other designers here: no ability is a problem if it is on a sub-competitive piece. GMA as a special ability is fine anyway...if you don't like it, blame WotC, not the designers.) sorry I did not know you joined the discussion. legacy a different game than standard? in a very real sense I agree. legacy does not allow for the same garbage standard does. it does not put up with overpowered pieces, crap tactics (high activation, booming voice, swarm bombs) and abusing game mechanics (mouse walls/hiding behind mice). as far as game play goes it is the exact same.
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Jen'ari wrote:sorry I did not know you joined the discussion.
legacy a different game than standard? in a very real sense I agree. legacy does not allow for the same garbage standard does. it does not put up with overpowered pieces, crap tactics (high activation, booming voice, swarm bombs) and abusing game mechanics (mouse walls/hiding behind mice).
as far as game play goes it is the exact same. It also only allows for a limited amount of squad types, mainly melee beat squads. Which is fine, but not everyone wants to play those squads. I like that you all have found a way to keep playing the game and keep it fun for you. I like a lot of the changes y'all have made and hope that standards will follow suit. Throwing out tempo control, mas ameda and some of the other changes is taking the easy way out IMO and I do not think the community would be better for it. It is possible to design away from those aspects of the game. It just requires a conscious effort by the design team. I know they are currently taking steps in set 11 to taper off some of the NPE's and that is a common goal of every design team. The design team is also looking into NPE's and what to change or not to. In my opinion it only gets better from here.
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atmsalad wrote:Jen'ari wrote:sorry I did not know you joined the discussion.
legacy a different game than standard? in a very real sense I agree. legacy does not allow for the same garbage standard does. it does not put up with overpowered pieces, crap tactics (high activation, booming voice, swarm bombs) and abusing game mechanics (mouse walls/hiding behind mice).
as far as game play goes it is the exact same. It also only allows for a limited amount of squad types, mainly melee beat squads. Which is fine, but not everyone wants to play those squads. I like that you all have found a way to keep playing the game and keep it fun for you. I like a lot of the changes y'all have made and hope that standards will follow suit. Throwing out tempo control, mas ameda and some of the other changes is taking the easy way out IMO and I do not think the community would be better for it. It is possible to design away from those aspects of the game. It just requires a conscious effort by the design team. I know they are currently taking steps in set 11 to taper off some of the NPE's and that is a common goal of every design team.The design team is also looking into NPE's and what to change or not to. In my opinion it only gets better from here. LOL, come on atmsalad you are smarter then this man. they have been trying for awhile to shift the focus off of temp control and thrawn, and we got Daala, and double swap out of it lol. we have 26+ act squads with one attacker winning regionals nowadays, and act control is dominating now more then it ever has in my opinion. you call it taking the easy way out, I call it fixing the game. and all this talk about only melee being playabe in legends is laughable. all fringe shooters in legends is a top squad for sure it has zero melee pieces in it. seps are easily able to run all shooters, rebels are a complete mix with han, chewie, luke, and yoda how is that all melee? even new republic does not rely on just melee? if anything our changes have allowed for the balanced 2-3 melee with 1-2 shooter, or 2-3 shooters with 1-2 melee squads to be viable the one thing I will admit to not existing is swarms, but swarms suck for the game anyways.
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