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CorranHornsux123
Posted: Friday, August 14, 2015 9:21:50 AM
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I have some things i need to know about what all works wit or against Force Spirits.

Absorb Life Energy: If i gave Khem Val a force point through HoloSid and he successfully gets rid of the spirit does he still get the +1 +1 from defeating the FS?

Sith Sorcery: does this Force Power work on Force Spirits?

Repulse: i know the FS cant take the damage or ignores it but does it still get pushed back because he was in the blast area?

Shields/ Crab Armour 6: i know people are gonna say "why would you do that its stupid?!" but if i wanted to would i be able to give a FS shields 1 or crab Armour 6 through Vergre or Bao-Dur?

Force Spirit 4-6: Am i able to transfer those Force Points onto a FS?

Levitation 1: am i able to move a FS with this ability?

Face Your Destiny: Does this Force power work on FS's?
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, August 14, 2015 9:29:39 AM
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ALE: Yes. It does not require adjacency, and defeating the character does not have to be with an attack.

SS: Yes.

Repulse: Almost certainly yes, but wait for swinefeld.

Shields/Crab Armor: Yes, but that's stupid.

Force Spirit: Yes, and this would work even if the Spirit were not living.

Levitation: Yes. It does not target.

Face Your Destiny: No. This targets, even though it ignores almost all of the targeting rules. It doesn't ignore the adjacency part of the targeting rule (so an adjacent enemy prevents you from targeting anyone else), and you can't use it on a Spirit because a Spirit cannot be targeted.
CorranHornsux123
Posted: Friday, August 14, 2015 9:36:49 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:

Face Your Destiny: No. This targets, even though it ignores almost all of the targeting rules. It doesn't ignore the adjacency part of the targeting rule (so an adjacent enemy prevents you from targeting anyone else), and you can't use it on a Spirit because a Spirit cannot be targeted.


Face Your Destiny (Force 3, usable only on this character’s turn: choose an enemy within 12 squares regardless of line of sight and cover; that character gains Savage and is not affected by Empathy until the start of this character’s next turn or until this character is defeated; save 16. While affected by this ability: on its turn, the chosen character must move adjacent to this character if it can.)

It says nothing about Targeting it just says Choose y would it not work on the FS?
urbanjedi
Posted: Friday, August 14, 2015 9:53:43 AM
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The glossary definition expands this slightly, where it says:

The target can avoid the effect with a save of 16

Thus, it is a targeted ability (and has probably been played incorrectly in the past).
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, August 14, 2015 10:06:58 AM
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As a general guideline, everything targets unless it says it doesn't target or a range is specified (i.e. 'everyone within X squares').

Things that don't target (there are a few) usually say so in the glossary, not the card. Strafe and Lightsaber Sweep come to mind.
Darth_Reignir
Posted: Friday, August 14, 2015 10:24:15 AM
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My understanding is that the whole reason Transfer Essence works on a Force Spirit is because it does not say "target," but rather, "choose."

Face Your Destiny (glossary)
One enemy within 12 squares gains Savage until Darth Malgus next activates or or until Darth Malgus is defeated. Line of sight is not needed and cover is ignored, but you can't trace a path through a wall (count around it instead). The chosen character is immune to Empathy and must end its move adjacent to Darth Malgus if it can (if it can’t reach Darth Malgus or an enemy, it moves normally). The target can avoid the effect with a save of 16. This ability is usable only on this character's turn.

Transfer Essence (glossary)
A character using this Force power chooses any living ally, who does not have to be a legal target. Remove that ally from play and place this character in any legal square of the space the ally formerly occupied. That ally is immediately defeated and cannot take advantage of any effects that would prevent that result (such as Avoid Defeat.) This ability is usable only on this character’s turn.

While I do acknowledge that FYD has "target" in the text, the way it is initiated is by choosing a target. So I don't see how it wouldn't work.
Prestige Worldwide
Posted: Friday, August 14, 2015 10:27:36 AM
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Darth_Reignir wrote:
My understanding is that the whole reason Transfer Essence works on a Force Spirit is because it does not say "target," but rather, "choose."

Face Your Destiny (glossary)
One enemy within 12 squares gains Savage until Darth Malgus next activates or or until Darth Malgus is defeated. Line of sight is not needed and cover is ignored, but you can't trace a path through a wall (count around it instead). The chosen character is immune to Empathy and must end its move adjacent to Darth Malgus if it can (if it can’t reach Darth Malgus or an enemy, it moves normally). The target can avoid the effect with a save of 16. This ability is usable only on this character's turn.



Transfer Essence (glossary)
A character using this Force power chooses any living ally, who does not have to be a legal target. Remove that ally from play and place this character in any legal square of the space the ally formerly occupied. That ally is immediately defeated and cannot take advantage of any effects that would prevent that result (such as Avoid Defeat.) This ability is usable only on this character’s turn.

While I do acknowledge that FYD has "target" in the text, the way it is initiated is by choosing a target. So I don't see how it wouldn't work.


To expand on this thought, why not just change the glossary text of Transfer Essence to target, and then that solves the Force Spirit Debacle.
swinefeld
Posted: Friday, August 14, 2015 10:30:16 AM
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CorranHornsux123 wrote:


Repulse: i know the FS cant take the damage or ignores it but does it still get pushed back because he was in the blast area?


Yes, I see nothing in the Spirit definition that prevents it.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, August 14, 2015 10:31:58 AM
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Darth_Reignir wrote:
So I don't see how it wouldn't work.


Because it targets. Force Spirits are not legal targets.
Prestige Worldwide
Posted: Friday, August 14, 2015 10:35:42 AM
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swinefeld wrote:
CorranHornsux123 wrote:


Repulse: i know the FS cant take the damage or ignores it but does it still get pushed back because he was in the blast area?


Yes, I see nothing in the Spirit definition that prevents it.


With Sith Battle Manipulation can you target a Force Spirit? And if so can you make it walk off of a map?
Darth_Reignir
Posted: Friday, August 14, 2015 10:37:23 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Darth_Reignir wrote:
So I don't see how it wouldn't work.


Because it targets. Force Spirits are not legal targets.


Right, I understand, but it says to choose a character, not target a character.
fingersandteeth
Posted: Friday, August 14, 2015 10:40:55 AM
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Prestige Worldwide wrote:
swinefeld wrote:
CorranHornsux123 wrote:


Repulse: i know the FS cant take the damage or ignores it but does it still get pushed back because he was in the blast area?


Yes, I see nothing in the Spirit definition that prevents it.


With Sith Battle Manipulation can you target a Force Spirit? And if so can you make it walk off of a map?


you can't target it, but if you can target a fig within 6 then you can move the spirit as its a character within 6 squares of the original target. You can then move it into a pit, which might defeat it, or not, i'm not quite sure on that.

as for face your destiny, the actual ability states target

Face Your Destiny (glossary)
One enemy within 12 squares gains Savage until Darth Malgus next activates or or until Darth Malgus is defeated. Line of sight is not needed and cover is ignored, but you can't trace a path through a wall (count around it instead). The chosen character is immune to Empathy and must end its move adjacent to Darth Malgus if it can (if it can’t reach Darth Malgus or an enemy, it moves normally). The target can avoid the effect with a save of 16. This ability is usable only on this character's turn.

whereas transfer essence actually has wording that precludes it

Transfer Essence (glossary)
A character using this Force power chooses any living ally, who does not have to be a legal target. Remove that ally from play and place this character in any legal square of the space the ally formerly occupied. That ally is immediately defeated and cannot take advantage of any effects that would prevent that result (such as Avoid Defeat.) This ability is usable only on this character’s turn.
swinefeld
Posted: Friday, August 14, 2015 10:51:25 AM
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fingersandteeth wrote:
Prestige Worldwide wrote:
swinefeld wrote:
CorranHornsux123 wrote:


Repulse: i know the FS cant take the damage or ignores it but does it still get pushed back because he was in the blast area?


Yes, I see nothing in the Spirit definition that prevents it.


With Sith Battle Manipulation can you target a Force Spirit? And if so can you make it walk off of a map?


you can't target it, but if you can target a fig within 6 then you can move the spirit as its a character within 6 squares of the original target. You can then move it into a pit, which might defeat it, or not, i'm not quite sure on that.


In this scenario, you can move the ghost around, even into a pit - which it ignores, so it would not be defeated.
fingersandteeth
Posted: Friday, August 14, 2015 10:58:59 AM
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Thanks, Dave
urbanjedi
Posted: Friday, August 14, 2015 11:00:05 AM
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It should defeat it, as it can't end in the pit. Very similar to characters with flight can be moved into pits. So it should be the same ruling except the ghost would still be a save 11 as it doesn't have flight.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, August 14, 2015 11:02:28 AM
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urbanjedi wrote:
It should defeat it, as it can't end in the pit. Very similar to characters with flight can be moved into pits. So it should be the same ruling except the ghost would still be a save 11 as it doesn't have flight.


It would be a save 6. Same thing for Wall Climber, as long as the pit square and the square the character is moving from both have walls adjacent. Flight is an example of an ability that makes it save 6, but any ability that lets a character move through pits makes it save 6 instead of 11. (I didn't realize this until looking it up just now.)

From the glossary:
"pit

A kind of terrain. Pits block movement but not line of sight. They do not provide cover. A character with the Flight special ability can move through a square containing a pit but cannot end its move there.

If a character is involuntarily moved onto a pit square, stop its movement in the nearest square adjacent to the pit and make a save of 11. On a successful save, the character remains adjacent to the pit. On a failure, it is defeated. Characters with abilities that allow them to enter pit squares (such Flight) make a save of 6 instead."


--
Edit: I was wrong. See below. "Ignoring terrain" (spirits) is different from "ignoring pits while moving" (flight).
swinefeld
Posted: Friday, August 14, 2015 11:18:20 AM
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OK, hold on while I dig up the Nickname blue text... Tongue

http://community.wizards.com/comment/12163466#comment-12163466

Quote:
Could you use force repulse to push a force ghost even though you can't damage them?

Yes.

If so could you push them into a pit since it's still an illegal end space, even though they ignore terrain?

No, as falling in a pit in an effect of terrain and the character is not affected by terrain.
urbanjedi
Posted: Friday, August 14, 2015 11:20:38 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
urbanjedi wrote:
It should defeat it, as it can't end in the pit. Very similar to characters with flight can be moved into pits. So it should be the same ruling except the ghost would still be a save 11 as it doesn't have flight.


It would be a save 6. Same thing for Wall Climber, as long as the pit square and the square the character is moving from both have walls adjacent. Flight is an example of an ability that makes it save 6, but any ability that lets a character move through pits makes it save 6 instead of 11. (I didn't realize this until looking it up just now.)

From the glossary:
"pit

A kind of terrain. Pits block movement but not line of sight. They do not provide cover. A character with the Flight special ability can move through a square containing a pit but cannot end its move there.

If a character is involuntarily moved onto a pit square, stop its movement in the nearest square adjacent to the pit and make a save of 11. On a successful save, the character remains adjacent to the pit. On a failure, it is defeated. Characters with abilities that allow them to enter pit squares (such Flight) make a save of 6 instead."


Oops, for some reason, I always thought it was only flight that made it a lower save.
swinefeld
Posted: Friday, August 14, 2015 11:22:35 AM
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Wait, I may have missed something copying...
urbanjedi
Posted: Friday, August 14, 2015 11:23:15 AM
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swinefeld wrote:
OK, hold on while I dig up the Nickname blue text... Tongue

http://community.wizards.com/comment/12163466#comment-12163466

Quote:
Could you use force repulse to push a force ghost even though you can't damage them?

Yes.

If so could you push them into a pit since it's still an illegal end space, even though they ignore terrain?

No, as falling in a pit in an effect of terrain and the character is not affected by terrain.



So, guess I have playing this wrong.
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