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Shrouded? Options
kezzamachineII
Posted: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 5:20:38 PM
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Hey. I'm trying to find any information on Shrouded and how it actually works - is there anything anywhere?
EmporerDragon
Posted: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 7:45:53 PM
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It does two things.

1) He can't be targeted by special abilities if the enemy is within 6 squares from him. So, Grenades, Thud Bug, Flamethrower, etc. can't pick him as the primary target unless they've got something to extend the range and are using the ability from more than 6 squares away. Force Powers and abilities that generate attacks can still work against him though.

2) He cannot gain any abilities that reduce damage or prevent damage. So, as the tradeoff, he can't be given any abilities like Shields or Evade. He could still gain force powers like Force Bubble though.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 8:17:34 PM
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"Abilities" includes Force Powers as well as Special Abilities. (See Squad Discipline for another use of "abilities".)

So he cannot be targeted by Force Powers within 6 squares (e.g. Lightning). He can still be attacked by abilities like Lightsaber Assault that generate attacks. Abilities that generate attacks target the attacker.
EmporerDragon
Posted: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 9:04:58 PM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
"Abilities" includes Force Powers as well as Special Abilities. (See Squad Discipline for another use of "abilities".)


Hrm.

It used to be that Abilities and Force Powers were differentiated in both card text and/or glossary definitions (examples: Disintegration, Intuition, Melee Reach, Snare Rifle, Twin Attack) and not in an all-encompassing "abilities". When exactly did this change and where is it written down?
FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 9:15:09 PM
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I didn't realize it was a change. Perhaps with squad discipline?

Send swinefeld a ping. He should weigh in here.
Kamikaze13
Posted: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 10:08:48 PM
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From the FAQ:

Q: What exactly counts as an attack? Many defensive abilities say
they work against "attacks." Does this mean they work against every
sort of offensive ability?
A: An attack is rolling a d20, adding the character's Attack number
(including modifiers), comparing to the target's Defense, and dealing
damage equal to the attacker's Damage number (including
modifiers). If an offensive ability isn't resolved that way, it doesn't
count as an attack. Thus, many defensive abilities cannot protect
against abilities such Missiles, Grenades, Force Lightning, and so on
because they're not attacks.
Kamikaze13
Posted: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 10:21:57 PM
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Also:
Glossary Terms wrote:
Force powers

These are special attacks, moves, or abilities. When using a Force power, subtract its cost in Force points from the character’s total. A Force power cannot be used if the character doesn’t have enough Force points.

http://www.bloomilk.com/Glossary?Id=27
Vankovich
Posted: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 11:05:27 PM
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I've been using Wise recently, and this is quite the skill. But I have one question. Corde has Suppressive Fire, if she attacks within 6 squares is suppressive fire then suppressed itself?
EmporerDragon
Posted: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 12:20:24 AM
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Vankovich wrote:
I've been using Wise recently, and this is quite the skill. But I have one question. Corde has Suppressive Fire, if she attacks within 6 squares is suppressive fire then suppressed itself?

As supressive fire does not target, it is not affected by Shrouded.

@Kamikaze13:
What I'm getting at is that when you go through the WotC rulebook and glossary, it almost never uses the term "abilities" (there isn't even a definition for "ability"). It instead uses "Special Abilities and Force Powers". Look at the wordings in the definitions of Disintegration, Desert Skiff, or Snare Rife. Breath Mask uses the term "abilities and Force Powers" in it's description, implying that they are not the same. Even V-Set things like the aforementioned Suppresive Fire or Brutal Strike use that wording.
Honestly, I'm just chalking it up to a combination of inconsistent writing (or possibly a way to save space on the cards) and having it ground into me for over a decade that a Force Power is not an Ability, it is a Force Power.
Mando
Posted: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 3:19:13 AM
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i've been playing it as I can't even Lightsaber Assault a shrouded target, cause that targets and gives you 2 attacks. Is this correct on its use? its been kinda frustrating since a lot of jedi require the use of Lightsaber Assault to do good damage.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 4:31:03 AM
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You can use LSA for the same reason that you can use it against Vong.
juice man
Posted: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 7:07:10 AM
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EmporerDragon wrote:
Vankovich wrote:
I've been using Wise recently, and this is quite the skill. But I have one question. Corde has Suppressive Fire, if she attacks within 6 squares is suppressive fire then suppressed itself?

As supressive fire does not target, it is not affected by Shrouded.

@Kamikaze13:
What I'm getting at is that when you go through the WotC rulebook and glossary, it almost never uses the term "abilities" (there isn't even a definition for "ability"). It instead uses "Special Abilities and Force Powers". Look at the wordings in the definitions of Disintegration, Desert Skiff, or Snare Rife. Breath Mask uses the term "abilities and Force Powers" in it's description, implying that they are not the same. Even V-Set things like the aforementioned Suppresive Fire or Brutal Strike use that wording.
Honestly, I'm just chalking it up to a combination of inconsistent writing (or possibly a way to save space on the cards) and having it ground into me for over a decade that a Force Power is not an Ability, it is a Force Power.
I remember when Captain Tarpals came out. It was a surprise to learn Force Powers were included in his CE. That's when I found out SA's and FP's shared a blanket. It's in the FAQ's.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 9:57:38 AM
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Tarpals! Awesome. That clarifies it. Thanks. I didn't think it was a newly invented term for Vsets, but my search only turned up Squad Discipline (a Vset ability).
EmporerDragon
Posted: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 10:22:10 AM
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juice man wrote:
I remember when Captain Tarpals came out. It was a surprise to learn Force Powers were included in his CE. That's when I found out SA's and FP's shared a blanket. It's in the FAQ's.


Huh. I can honestly say I never noticed that. I knew that his CE worked on force powers but I guess I always glossed over the fact that the card just said abilities.

In any case, as I said before, I'm not disputing it, just attributing it to inconsistent writing.
swinefeld
Posted: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 1:12:25 PM
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EmporerDragon wrote:
juice man wrote:
I remember when Captain Tarpals came out. It was a surprise to learn Force Powers were included in his CE. That's when I found out SA's and FP's shared a blanket. It's in the FAQ's.


Huh. I can honestly say I never noticed that. I knew that his CE worked on force powers but I guess I always glossed over the fact that the card just said abilities.

In any case, as I said before, I'm not disputing it, just attributing it to inconsistent writing.


Agreed, there has been some inconsistent writing.
Tarpals precedent aside, there is also NTMTO:
Quote:
Suppresses enemy special abilities that modify initiative

I put that out as an example of specific wording in card text to distinguish "special" abilities from the generic "abilities".

I'd have to dig hard to turn it up, but Sithborg has backed up the generic interpretation as well. Probably post-Tarpals.
Caedus
Posted: Friday, October 28, 2016 10:39:32 AM
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Actually since LS Assault replaces attacks and the fact that you make 2 attacks to a target wouldn't Shrouded stop that? I see how Sith rage could still be used but not an ability that replaces attacks.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, October 28, 2016 10:45:43 AM
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Caedus wrote:
Actually since LS Assault replaces attacks and the fact that you make 2 attacks to a target wouldn't Shrouded stop that? I see how Sith rage could still be used but not an ability that replaces attacks.


Lightsaber Assault (as well as anything else that generates attacks) targets the attacker. The attacks themselves target the enemy. This is consistent with how it interacts with Force Immunity. You can use Lightsaber Assault against the Vong because you generate attacks for yourself with a Force power (targeting yourself) and then you use those attacks to target the Vong (at that point they're plain old attacks - not a Force power).
General_Grievous
Posted: Monday, February 6, 2017 11:54:51 PM
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So with shrouded he can't gain Lightsaber Defense?
FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, February 7, 2017 4:56:44 AM
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General_Grievous wrote:
So with shrouded he can't gain Lightsaber Defense?


Correct.
donnyrides
Posted: Tuesday, February 7, 2017 6:28:44 AM
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More rules throwdowns. I love these. like a quiz. Let's see if I pass. probably not..... I'm about 50/50 on these Laugh

Quote:
I remember when Captain Tarpals came out. It was a surprise to learn Force Powers were included in his CE. That's when I found out SA's and FP's shared a blanket. It's in the FAQ's.


agree and disagree.

Tarpals CE: Each follower can use 2 abilities that replace attacks instead of 1 on its turn. - This used the generic form of "abilities" meaning anything on the stat card under SAs or FPs and in this case that allows you to do something to replaces attacks. Keep in mind you still need MotF 2 to pull this off for FPs

Luke's versatility: Versatility (At the start of the skirmish, after set-up, you may replace this character with another character of an equal or lesser cost who counts as Luke Skywalker. The chosen replacement gains one of this character's other special abilities. If the replacement's cost is at least 5 less than this character's cost, he also gains this character's commander effect.) - in this case it is spelled out for you where it specifically says "special abilities" so you are not allowed to take a Force Power. I would have preferred it be printed as the proper noun variation to give more distinction but the fully spelled out version does the same thing.

With explaining the above there is shrouded
Shrouded: Cannot be targeted by enemy abilities within 6 squares. Cannot gain abilities that reduce or prevent damage. - here is the generic version of the word "abilities" again. covers both SA's and FP's. You can use things on yourself, like Sweep, Assault, Rage, etc... just nothing that directly hits the Shrouded person. My only fuzzy part comes from my Magic the Gathering background that dodges this same named ability. If you don't directly target the shrouded piece, is it still impacted. My guess would be yes and no. If The Wise is not the target but adjacent, he should be hit by grenades. BUT if somebody came in and tried to sith sorcery he should be exempt, even though SS doesn't say "target" anywhere in the ability. In Magic the Gathering, SS WOULD hit him as it doesn't target. like "deal 1 damage to all creatures" would hit shrouded creatures, since it doesn't target them directly. I guess if we go by the letter of the law, SS would be able to hit The Wise since it doesn't directly target him, but I think the intent was to make him immune to enemy abilities within 6. but if that is true does he ignore Force Immunity and Ysalamiri?
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