I think if he gains steam in regionals, Vong are going to take over the meta and stay there.

Eh. He's gimmicky for sure. I think he's fine.

Perfectly balanced and one of the most interesting pieces out there. Very thematic if you know the character from Clone Wars and allows for very limited but awesome combos for people to try out and bring their favourties together. Bringing Grievous and Kyle together was excellent in our regional. And plenty of counters as high activations, vong and direct damage or jedi hunters tear any Father teams apart. Leave him as is because he is interesting and good for the game

+1

I think it is pretty significant that he restricts future piece designs. A guy who got nothing more than 3 episodes of Clone Wars shouldn't have that much impact on the game going forward.

So if he will significantly impact future piece designs, I say ban him. Change him. Make him EPIC. Do whatever, don't let him mess around with future designs.

Although, I don't really mind that he's made this much of a splash, and I usually am against changing a piece - specifically when it puts rocks at the top. Timmer has some great points that I find very convincing, but I also agree with what General Grievous has said.

I'm honestly very curious as to how some of these problems are still problems? I thought Blast Bugs were still killing people. Blast Bugs eat Father for lunch. It looks like you have to play fairly aggressively to do well with a Father squad - the best I've heard of was General Grievous's Hero of Hypori and Kyle Katarn squad, which is beefy Disruptive with an aggressive scissors piece and the Levitation gimmick that only worked because they weren't expecting it.

Maybe this isn't the place to ask, but truly, why doesn't outactivation beat him? Does he do enough to counter it, or have the other activation counters (Odan-Urr, Plagueis the Wise, Jango Mandalore, etc.) scared enough out-act-and-smashers out of the game that they can't keep him in line?

And I must specifically take issue with the example of Father-GOWK-VoL. That squad has one piece for damage output. I have used GOWK more than anything else, and he is not invincible. More than that, he takes his precious time to kill anything. It would take him a good two turns at least to take out one Lah Warrior.

So I guess I'm okay either way, I can easily see how he will seriously restrict future force-users, and for that reason alone I think he warrants change. I agree with much of what Timmer said. However, I'm not really convinced that he himself is that much of a problem power-level wise.

TL;DR
+1 to TimmerB: I see that he can really warp the game indirectly. However, I don't see that he himself is too powerful. I'd like to see him changed so as not to restrict future designs, but for no other reason.

poll!!!
i love polls. I once made a poll to see what kind of group exercise class people in my college wanted me to do.
The options where

Cardio/Intervals
Yogalates
eXtreme Body Challenge
Circuits


I received overwhelming numbers from young college girls for a Yogalates class. So, I set up a Yogalates class, advertised it, it was free. I was doing it just for the experience. I was well versed in the realm of exercise and fitness and knew what I was doing.

2 people showed up. One chick who had a crush on me named Norma (from Mexico) and a different chick who I think was pregnant and trying to stay fit.

Good pol, bad poll, poll poll poll
they suck altogether and are the weakest form of data. But the discussion the poll created is worth its weight in gold.

Did you read that?
1) if you read all of it
2) If you read half of it
3) if you read the first line and than skipped through
4) if you said its sithbot, who cares?


But in reality The Father needs to be changed because he hurts future design possibilities.

I gave major Kudos to the design team for him because I think he is very interesting and I think he is fun. I just never like the idea of hurting potential designs. I do not think he is a problem right now.

But does he really hurt future designs that much? We have hundreds if not thousands of potential combinations for him. And even the very best combos still only have two attackers in them. He doesn't do anything new to the game other than allowing you to mix and match a dream team. There are tons of counters to a Father squad especially since they are very rock heavy and force dependent. He helps out rock squads, (though force battery, movement breaker, defensive abilities and a protective force cancel bubble all are nothing new) and adds a breath of fresh squad-building life which has shown by the sheer number of squads being built with him. Not to mention how interested the players in my area are in him.

So pros for keeping the Father as is and in competitive games:
-most interesting piece released to date which generates interest in the game which SWM needs
-breath of fresh life to squad-building
-fun
-definitely nowhere need broken

And as for the con that he can impact future designs, I honestly can't believe that. As is, even the most "broken" two pieces that can be paired with him from ANY faction at best come out as a tier 1.5 team due to the fact that you have a rock-heavy, force dependent team that only has three activations. I was incredibly lucky to do as well as I did but would have been torn to shreds by a swarm, direct damage, vong and more. My biggest advantage was my opponents underestimating the movement-breaking abilities of my squad and bringing fewer act-heavy squads. If I was to rematch against the Echani/Bastilla game I don't think I would do as well as I'm sure they would have been played more defensively.
So in essence designers could ignore the Father when designing as what possible piece could be stronger than what can already be played?

Restricting future design is a problem, although how much of a problem remains to be seen. I've actually really enjoyed the matches I've played against The Father--some of the most fun games of minis I've had recently. I like that you have to stay on your toes, adapt, and come up with creative ways to use your squad's strengths against him. Playing against The Father makes me look at my squads in new ways. And that makes me a better, more flexible player.

As a member of the team that designed the piece, I can say that we did not imagine him making a competitive splash--we believed that the squad building restriction would keep most people away. As happens on every set, some combinations were missed that make The Father more attractive to play. In the past, designers missing the mark regarding their intent for a piece has been as reason to consider changes, and I don't have any problem with the piece being reviewed for balance problems.

However, just from my play experiences with the piece, I can say that he certainly isn't any more annoying than any number of other squads (from my perspective), and he has brought out some of the most creative, innovative, unpredictable games I've played.

Wait, what?

Whenever a design team makes a Force user from now until eternity, they won't simply have to assess its strength within its own faction like they normally do. We will now have to take The Father into consideration every single time and compare it with pieces they can match up with in every single other faction. Design is already hard enough. This makes it a whole lot tougher.

As to number 3 - I can't see how it could be debated. It says it right on the card. You have to make a team of 3. That's an extreme squad type. Show me another three character squad that is competitive. You are lucky to have a seven character squad competitive before. This pushes the lower activation extreme squad type to the max.


Back to number 2, I never said it wouldn't win regionals - it already has in fact (ironically by someone who is passionately arguing that it's perfectly balanced, lol)

I said I didn't think I was going to win Gen Con.

It's an extreme squad type - So it is very strong against certain squads and very weak against others. The issue with that is it will most likely run into something it's week against, thus unlikely to win it all. It will also most likely run into something it's strong against. Therefore it will probably knock something out that overall is a better squad and probably more deserving to have a shot at winning it.

A truly balanced squad gives you a chance against any other squad, and skill comes in the play more. Extreme squads more often have near auto wins and near auto losses. When you encounter those, less skill is involved.

So most everybody will have to have a plan for facing it. It's what we call a gatekeeper. There was a time of discussion about this concept many years ago, it hasn't been talked about as much recently.

Gate Keepers frequently warp the meta indirectly. Since people have to have a plan to face and extreme squad type, they might abandon certain squads. This shifts The meta, even without that squad dominating.

The first instinct may be that it helps Melee and rock squads. This is unfortunately shortsighted and small minded thinking. In the long run it hurts it. The meta turns anti-rock due to it. I'm not talking about creating future counters, i'm talking what will immediately happen as a knee jerk reaction.

Do you know the only thing worse than being beaten by a 25 character squad with activation control? Being beaten by a three character squad. The NPE factor is through the roof.


Don't get me wrong, obviously this character is very polarizing. Some people love him. Have fun with him ya'll. Just know that there's a large part of the community that hates the concept to the very core.

I would comment on Father, but I imagine it would probably turn into a rambling stream-of-consciousness off-topic semi-rant about "forward thinking" (both good and bad) that always happens during the design process (including my own input).

I'll just get back to work proofing stuff in set 14 before the deadline arrives instead.