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I was just paired (for a minute) against Ultrastars Blast Bugs (a squad that was used by Spryguy, if memory serves correct).
I am playing Caedus and Malgus. Two people that I feel should be pretty competitive. I was looking at the squad Infinite Empire that has Prefect, Supreme Quorreal, Warrior Caste, than Domain Lah and Praetorite Scouts in it and thought... there is no scenario in which I even have a slight chance of winning.
Even if I play my squad 100% (I will term it the TINT way) correct I have zero chance.
With that said I was thinking about other force user melee squads that might have a chance. Sidious and Vader of Lothal.... NO chance at all.
OR force users, no chance, Republic Cin Drallig, Quinlan, Serra, r2d2 have no chance that I can think of.
Sith squads with Bane or Plageuis have zero chance as well.
I just do not see why these things exist... I have no idea why in the course of a whole skirmish 1 7 point piece will do more damage overall than my 72 point malgus or my 54 point Caedus.
IF people are serious about getting the game to be more melee friendly VONG BLAST BUGS have to be the first thing to go.
To be 100% honest VSET 6 is having repurcussions even today..
It is very silly to me that we have not fixed these issues.
Blast bugs is only on one piece in the whole game. It has never been used again as far as I know. IMO the whole ability should just be abolished. The balance committe ruling should just be Blast bugs is banned completely.
There should never be a reason for jedi to take auto damage from non-unique characters. (flamethrower included)
IF the community actually wants melee to be competitive than Blast Bugs must go. It is essential to melee force users being able to be played.
It seems like the one play style that should, wihtout a doubt, be competitive, Unique force users, still has absolute auto losses and therefore cannot be ran effectively in the competitive realm. Before anyone says Republic Republic Republic I will hasten to remind everyone that once they hit an extreme play style they lose. almost every single time.
The game still has its issues and I am glad people are sacrificing themselves as they play squads they do not like and are not going to have a fun time playing just to get the proof that is needed.
TBH blast bugs does not need anymore proof than reading it to know that it simply does not belong. It is time we "hasten the work" of getting some of these known NPE's out of the way. It is much better to do it while we have a great chance for everyone to hear it and get used to it before the gencon season and more of the regional seasons.
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Quote:Blast Bug is unbalanced because it gets around every defense. It is not an attack, so it gets around high defenses and Evade/Parry/LSDefense. It has no save, so FPRR and Survival Expert don't help. It ignores every type of armor, so it goes through Shields, Dark Armor, Crab Armor, Beskar'gam, Force-Attuned Armor, Force Bubble, etc. Some of those things wouldn't work anyway because it's a Vong ability so you couldn't spend FP to respond anyway. It's range 6, so Distraction won't help even though it's granted via CE. It's Vong, so Bastila won't help even though it's granted through a CE. Disruptive should help and might in some cases, but they have a CE to extend the range to 8. Shrouded also should help, but again the range can be extended to 8.
No other ability in the game does that or comes close.
Look at the other replaces-attack range 6 abilities. Many have saves - Grenades, Thud Bug. Some don't - Lightning (costs FP and Vong/Ysalamiri stops it), Flamethrower. But none of them go through armor.
Look at the other unpreventable damage abilities. They all have major drawbacks. Mostly they are either Force powers that use up your FP, or they are abilities that are on Huge or Savage pieces. And the one that makes crits unpreventable. Or Crack Shot where you have to combine fire to get it unpreventable. In all those cases, they are on attacks where you still have to hit, so a high defense could still help you. I may be forgetting something but I can't think of another non-attack ability that deals unpreventable damage (other than Ajunta Pall's new trick, which only works in response to getting shot).
Also, when you look at unpreventable damage, for the most part those characters are dealing lower damage than other similarly costed characters. Which makes sense. Most characters are preventing damage somehow. When you deal unpreventable damage, you should deal about half of what your equally-costed peers do. Since about half of what they deal gets negated.
Getting past every defense like that could be okay if it were balanced with its own detriments and a high cost, but it isn't. I can't see it being balanced without going down to 10dmg even after doing whatever is needed to the other pieces. Quoting myself from 9/16/16.
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Balance Team is already looking at it.
I hate Blast Bugs.
Jason's Cin/Serra squad handled it OK by using Marn to bring in Rodian Brutes with Blast Bug.
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TheHutts wrote:Balance Team is already looking at it.
I hate Blast Bugs.
Jason's Cin/Serra squad handled it OK by using Marn to bring in Rodian Brutes with Blast Bug. That's friggin brilliant. marn is tricky Flying arrow that post is friggin brilliant. It is a shame that they are just now looking into it. I am very happy that they are. I always have trust in the balance committee since their results have been so welcome. However, flying arrows post was an entire year ago... I have always said that something is brought up and it takes two years to accomplish it. This one was brought up much longer than that. @balance committee. I don't remember if I knew you were looking at it or not, most of the time one I know you are looking into something I just wait for the results. But this time I would still like to hear from more community personel on the issue. As kind of a community appeal to your decision as far as an NPE goes
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Balance Committee did make a couple of Blast Bug changes last year:
- increased cost of Domain Lahs
- increased cost of Subcommander (so it can't be bought in through Reinforcements)
It did take some power off them, but looking again.
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TheHutts wrote:Balance Committee did make a couple of Blast Bug changes last year:
- increased cost of Domain Lahs
- increased cost of Subcommander (so it can't be bought in through Reinforcements)
It did take some power off them, but looking again. Ya, it fits under the same boat of hastening the work. I knew it was changed and tbh when it was changed I think most people knew it would not be enough. But it did slow them down. Same with when the Daala change came out. But it did slow her down tremendously. I do appreciate the balance committee not wanting to completely destroy things and trying to hold on to the original as possible. But sometimes a total ban is warranted. Imo this is one of those times. To the ability
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Bare minimum, a big positive step would be taking away Warrior from the PV scout. (Never should have had it in the first place), though other NU warriors can still be an issue
Rather then changing the ability to be 10 damage or a save (where it still might be an issue)
The best (easiest) solution to the whole problem would be that only uniques can get it. I think the ability exactly as is would be completely fine in that circumstance.
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TimmerB123 wrote:Bare minimum, a big positive step would be taking away Warrior from the PV scout. (Never should have had it in the first place), though other NU warriors can still be an issue
Rather then changing the ability to be 10 damage or a save (where it still might be an issue)
The best (easiest) solution to the whole problem would be that only uniques can get it. I think the ability exactly as is would be completely fine in that circumstance. +1 I'd hate to see it totally abolished. I realize Vong is not "canon" anymore, but neither are quite a few pieces that are still played. I would hate to see Vong Squads limited to 2
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Caedus wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:Bare minimum, a big positive step would be taking away Warrior from the PV scout. (Never should have had it in the first place), though other NU warriors can still be an issue
Rather then changing the ability to be 10 damage or a save (where it still might be an issue)
The best (easiest) solution to the whole problem would be that only uniques can get it. I think the ability exactly as is would be completely fine in that circumstance. +1 I'd hate to see it totally abolished. I realize Vong is not "canon" anymore, but neither are quite a few pieces that are still played. I would hate to see Vong Squads limited to 2 I would like there to be less than 1 playable, competitive Vong. Vong should, and only should be T2. BUT, if you guys wanna see how all your work is wasted, watch UrbanShmi play Ultrastar in round 2. Its UrbanShmi's new "Unique Vong" Vs the same ole broken SWM Swarm Non unique squad. This is not a knock on Urban Shmi in anyway shape or form, so please don;t take this that way. I just don't feel Unique Vong have ANY chance against Non Unique Vong Swarms. And, if the point of the 8th Cortex was to make Vong Unique Playable, what good is that if it can't even compete against the other competitive squad in the faction? All the 8th Cortex did is make it harder and harder to run Force Users. It doesn't stop anything else. Unique Vong lose to this stupid Blast Bugs thing. Blast Bugs are still stupid. And hopefully, afte this tournament, they will be fixed, only time will tell.
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FlyingArrow wrote:Quote:Blast Bug is unbalanced because it gets around every defense. It is not an attack, so it gets around high defenses and Evade/Parry/LSDefense. It has no save, so FPRR and Survival Expert don't help. It ignores every type of armor, so it goes through Shields, Dark Armor, Crab Armor, Beskar'gam, Force-Attuned Armor, Force Bubble, etc. Some of those things wouldn't work anyway because it's a Vong ability so you couldn't spend FP to respond anyway. It's range 6, so Distraction won't help even though it's granted via CE. It's Vong, so Bastila won't help even though it's granted through a CE. Disruptive should help and might in some cases, but they have a CE to extend the range to 8. Shrouded also should help, but again the range can be extended to 8.
No other ability in the game does that or comes close.
Look at the other replaces-attack range 6 abilities. Many have saves - Grenades, Thud Bug. Some don't - Lightning (costs FP and Vong/Ysalamiri stops it), Flamethrower. But none of them go through armor.
Look at the other unpreventable damage abilities. They all have major drawbacks. Mostly they are either Force powers that use up your FP, or they are abilities that are on Huge or Savage pieces. And the one that makes crits unpreventable. Or Crack Shot where you have to combine fire to get it unpreventable. In all those cases, they are on attacks where you still have to hit, so a high defense could still help you. I may be forgetting something but I can't think of another non-attack ability that deals unpreventable damage (other than Ajunta Pall's new trick, which only works in response to getting shot).
Also, when you look at unpreventable damage, for the most part those characters are dealing lower damage than other similarly costed characters. Which makes sense. Most characters are preventing damage somehow. When you deal unpreventable damage, you should deal about half of what your equally-costed peers do. Since about half of what they deal gets negated.
Getting past every defense like that could be okay if it were balanced with its own detriments and a high cost, but it isn't. I can't see it being balanced without going down to 10dmg even after doing whatever is needed to the other pieces. Quoting myself from 9/16/16. I 100% agree!
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TimmerB123 wrote:Bare minimum, a big positive step would be taking away Warrior from the PV scout. (Never should have had it in the first place), though other NU warriors can still be an issue
Rather then changing the ability to be 10 damage or a save (where it still might be an issue)
The best (easiest) solution to the whole problem would be that only uniques can get it. I think the ability exactly as is would be completely fine in that circumstance. +1
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Yeah, always a pleasure to play with Bronson. I had essentially one possible chance, to wallclimber around and get to his commanders, but that was impossible because of how quickly and efficiently he set up his kill box. The blast bugs are truly a nightmare for melee, and really for almost every other squad type. Only strafe really has a shot.
This is from UrbanSHmi on a differnt thread, just wanted to move it so it wasn't jacking another thread. But could you let the Powers That Be know that their precious Unique Vong can't compare to Non Unique Vong? In anyway, shape or form.
Its pretty stupid that you guys have not changed it. This is the most obvious NPE that NO ONE enjoys playing. I feel like if this was ANY OTHER FACTION. It would be changed in a heartbeat. But since its Vong, and you guys are obsessed with them. You want to keep them out for for a long as possible.
#Losingfaith
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Blast Bug changes are in process and will be forthcoming prior to the start of the new regional season.
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spryguy1981 wrote:Blast Bug changes are in process and will be forthcoming prior to the start of the new regional season. when's the new regional season? and AWESOME!
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jen'ari wrote:spryguy1981 wrote:Blast Bug changes are in process and will be forthcoming prior to the start of the new regional season. when's the new regional season? and AWESOME! 2018. #Spryguyismyguy
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shmi15 wrote:Its pretty stupid that you guys have not changed it. This is the most obvious NPE that NO ONE enjoys playing. I feel like if this was ANY OTHER FACTION. It would be changed in a heartbeat. But since its Vong, and you guys are obsessed with them. You want to keep them out for for a long as possible.
#Losingfaith Basically, the problem squad with Vong last year was JuiceMan's build with Domain Lahs where he could choose to bring in the Subcommander depending on matchup. The Balance Committee dealt with this by raising the cost of Domain Lahs from 10, and bringing the Subcommander to 23, where he can't come in with reinforcements. Before the Domain Lah came out, New Zealand had seem some pretty nasty squads with the Cloaked Pratetorite Scouts and Blast Bug. I wanted to deal with them based on that - it seemed logical that would be the next Blast Bug squad after the Lah Warriors were toned down - but there wasn't a lot of support for it as it hadn't really been seem in America at that point.
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A change is coming, discussion and play testing will determine what form those changes will come. :)
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TheHutts wrote:shmi15 wrote:Its pretty stupid that you guys have not changed it. This is the most obvious NPE that NO ONE enjoys playing. I feel like if this was ANY OTHER FACTION. It would be changed in a heartbeat. But since its Vong, and you guys are obsessed with them. You want to keep them out for for a long as possible.
#Losingfaith Basically, the problem squad with Vong last year was JuiceMan's build with Domain Lahs where he could choose to bring in the Subcommander depending on matchup. Ahhh, the good old days.
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TheHutts wrote:shmi15 wrote:Its pretty stupid that you guys have not changed it. This is the most obvious NPE that NO ONE enjoys playing. I feel like if this was ANY OTHER FACTION. It would be changed in a heartbeat. But since its Vong, and you guys are obsessed with them. You want to keep them out for for a long as possible.
#Losingfaith Basically, the problem squad with Vong last year was JuiceMan's build with Domain Lahs where he could choose to bring in the Subcommander depending on matchup. The Balance Committee dealt with this by raising the cost of Domain Lahs from 10, and bringing the Subcommander to 23, where he can't come in with reinforcements. Before the Domain Lah came out, New Zealand had seem some pretty nasty squads with the Cloaked Pratetorite Scouts and Blast Bug. I wanted to deal with them based on that - it seemed logical that would be the next Blast Bug squad after the Lah Warriors were toned down - but there wasn't a lot of support for it as it hadn't really been seem in America at that point. I agree with this statement 100%. Part of the issue I have, is that we can have data that shows squads are going to be an issue. And if the Axis of Evil like the squad, or if they don't think its an issue. Nothing happens. Here is the way I view it, as we all keep saying, our numbers are down. We just got a tournament together, with 19 participants!! 19! And over 85% of them have an auto loss against this, and won't have a fun experience. Why do we want to get so many people excited about a tournament, just to have someone play a squad that EVERYONE knows needs to be changed. But no one changes it because they "feel" its not bad to them. At some point, you guys need to change things without data, or just not make stupid designs that are so blatantly, obviously, terrible. I know I go on about this all the time. But Vong have, are, and will always be the worst designed faction in SWM. They have answers for anything, and everything, at a very extremely cheap cost. Most of which can be brought in through reserves to taylor it to whatever they are playing. Boardwide SA. SA/CE that extend other SA to 8 squares to get around Disruptive. How does any designer think this is good designing? Its lazy, and a complete buz kill. Thank God they are being changed again. Maybe 2019 we can just ban these fools for good, and be done with it. Worst faction. With the worst designs.
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shmi15 wrote:
I agree with this statement 100%. Part of the issue I have, is that we can have data that shows squads are going to be an issue. And if the Axis of Evil like the squad, or if they don't think its an issue. Nothing happens.
Here is the way I view it, as we all keep saying, our numbers are down. We just got a tournament together, with 19 participants!! 19! And over 85% of them have an auto loss against this, and won't have a fun experience. Why do we want to get so many people excited about a tournament, just to have someone play a squad that EVERYONE knows needs to be changed. But no one changes it because they "feel" its not bad to them. At some point, you guys need to change things without data, or just not make stupid designs that are so blatantly, obviously, terrible.
I know I go on about this all the time. But Vong have, are, and will always be the worst designed faction in SWM. They have answers for anything, and everything, at a very extremely cheap cost. Most of which can be brought in through reserves to taylor it to whatever they are playing. Boardwide SA. SA/CE that extend other SA to 8 squares to get around Disruptive. How does any designer think this is good designing? Its lazy, and a complete buz kill.
Thank God they are being changed again. Maybe 2019 we can just ban these fools for good, and be done with it. Worst faction. With the worst designs.
Yes, but playtesting set 15 I played unique Vong, and it was fun. just want to throw that out there. I think set 15 made Unique Vong fun and had success with the holocrons. The thing is that Unique Vong are melee and get into the action. but without the benefit of having the force. So it offsets itself decently well imo. I think tier 1.5 Unique Vong with a careful close to tier 1 build in there would be wonderful and fun. They have damage boosts and evade and a few movement breakers, but nothing over the top and starting with 10 base levels things out pretty nicely. i just think that non-unique vong have too much melee force user hate to be warranted, desired, or fun. So, I am with you Non-unique Vong are the worst non-unique builds and should not be viable at all. I am also with you that we do not need hard data to know what needs changes. I am so glad people are back in the "lets play really good squads using everything the game offers" mode. The Tn vassal regional was fun, but the squads were sub-par. This feels better in terms of seeing how the game works and things. But tbh there are still more things needed to be done to see real change to letting Melee force users be competitive.
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