For reference, here's a link to Etienne's squad:

http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/178577/-roger-stone-of-swm-v2--2017-gencon-champion

I originally posted this in the Snowy Regional event discussion, but I'm moving it here because it probably fits better here.

Speaking with Etienne after our Finals match, he said that the reason he played Daala in the Snowy Regional was to make a specific point, that we need to make a rules change about activations, either using something similar to what has been done in other games (IA, Armada, etc) or coming up with something brand new of our own. In that conversation after our Finals match I briefly outlined what I'll describe here.

One thing first: I invite Etienne to correct me on this, but I think the main issue is 'out-activate-and-smash' squads. He wasn't concerned primarily with Daala, because there will always be a new squad like it...rather, I think his concern was with what Daala represents: the power of activation control. Again, please correct me if I'm accidentally mis-representing you here, Etienne.

Regardless, I think that the Daala conversation needs to at least be considered in light of the activation control issue, because that is expressly why Daala was played again, a few days ago. That being said....

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A number of possibilities to nerf 'out-activate-and-smash' squad have been proposed, but the one I'm most familiar with is the one that mirrors what Imperial Assault has done.

In IA, figures are organized into Deployment Groups (ie, Deployment Cards). A Unique group will obviously contain only 1 figure, but a Stormtrooper group will have 3 figures. Regardless, players take turns, each activating 1 group/card at a time, until both players have activated all of their groups. Then the Initiative token passes to the other player and a new round begins.

Very quickly, IA players discovered what SWM players had known for years: out-activating your opponent is incredibly powerful (especially when you can guarantee that you have the Initiative token to start the next round). And it is even more powerful when you have several unanswered activations after your opponent has finished all his activations. At first, most squads had 5-7 activation groups, but then you started to see squads with 8 or even 9 groups, and nothing could keep up with them...high activations had a strangle-hold on the meta...surprise, surprise!

Therefore, IA instituted what became known as "The Pass Rule": As long as your opponent has more un-activated groups than you do, you can pass your turn. So if your opponent has 6 groups left to activate and you have 4, you can pass...he takes an activation and now has 5 groups so it's now your turn again...and you can pass again if you wish...your opponent takes another activation and now has 4 groups left (same as you), so you cannot pass again and must activate a group. Your opponent will still have the final activation of the round, but he will not have several of them. This made a big difference in the IA metagame, resulting in squads of 6 activations competing just fine against squads of 8 or 9. I'd rather not think about what the game would be like now if they hadn't instituted the Pass Rule!

That being said, IA has one factor that SWM doesn't: while both SWM and IA have (for lack of a better word) "scenario points" to be scored (in order to increase engagement and punish tactics of engagement avoidance), these "scenario points" function quite differently in SWM than they do in IA. As we know, in SWM the Gambit zone is one single area that is always in the same part of the map. By contrast, in IA each map has 2 separate scenarios, and each of those scenarios provides different means for scoring those Victory Points (VP)...and in most of those scenarios, it is helpful to have several low-cost grunts to gather objectives and score those points. So yes, you could build an IA squad with just 5 activations, but you'll often have no worthwhile way of scoring those VPs so you'd better be sure that you can wipe out your opponent's attackers quickly enough before he can score enough scenario VPs.

Therefore, due to the way that scenario VPs are scored in IA, even with the Pass Rule you are still wise to include at least a couple low-cost grunts in your low-activation beat-stick squad. A SWM squad, on the other hand, would have no reason to bring low-cost guys at all (apart from minor tech purposes like a couple Uggies or an OR Senator). Some people have theorized that instituting IA’s Pass Rule in SWM would result in squads of 4 or 5 beatsticks sitting in gambit and building up FPs and passing each activation while waiting for their opponent to engage. I’ll respond to that in a moment, but nevertheless, I do think it can be reasonably argued that instituting IA’s Pass Rule in SWM would almost certainly change the meta.

Here’s where I’m coming from, though: (some) low-activation squads CAN compete against (most) high activation squads. I managed to win the Championship this year with a squad of SIX characters…I was out-activated in every single game. However, this squad was a bit of an anomaly: it had a Defense boost and strafe-protection after everyone was out-activated, plus Disruptive and some worthwhile movement breakers and scissor options…I keep looking for ways to adjust it, but I don’t think there’s any way to improve on it at this point without a complete re-design. (In fact, after our Finals match the other night, Etienne and I were wondering about how my Mando squad would match up with his Daala squad.) But there’s not just one very specific Mando squad that can handle higher activations; a few weeks ago an 8-activation all-melee squad won a regional.

Furthermore, several times over the past year, some of my friends and I have said that we’re really not so concerned about being out-activated anymore, because we’ve learned how to deal with it (and how to build squads that can deal with it). But let’s recognize something here: this is ONLY possible because of the recent nerf of Tempo Control pieces. That rule change has opened the door to a much more wide-open meta than we’ve had in years; it now seems that almost any type of squad can compete. We are now seeing squads in the range of 8-12 activations, rather than 16-20.


Well, if you’ve read this far, then I admire you! In the end, here is where I come down on the issue of addressing out-activate-and-smash squads:

--I don’t think we need to institute IA’s Pass Rule. It would almost certainly change the meta, and I’m not sure that would be a good thing. I’d welcome other viewpoints on this, though. My main concern is simply that I think the meta is in a very good spot right now and there’s no need to “fix” it. However....

--Daala is a problem, no matter what. How many times have we nerfed Daala squads? And yet they’re still a massive NPE (even for those who play them). I’ve tried to come up with new nerfs for her that would balance her (reduce Charging Fire to Speed 8, giving Rival Unique Commanders, etc) but each of those options fails to fix the real problem. I do think that the best solution is simply to ban her. The whole concept of a ban is precisely to deal with pieces like this, so let's just do it and be done with it.

--I’m truly not sure if Thrawn is still overpowered. It seems to me that the Tempo Control nerf really hindered him, but Hutts accurately pointed out that nothing out-activates him anymore, and that there are very few scissors squads around. Therefore, I’d be interested to see the effect of a well-played Thrawn squad in an upcoming tournament. It’s very possible that Tim playing a Thrawn ‘n Blue squad (or whatever it’s called), or Jason playing his ninja Handmaidens could stomp just about anything. (If that’s the case then I have some other suggestions in mind, but that’s for another time.)

A thousand time this. If it's anything more than correcting a typo or a cost adjustment, just ban the piece instead. Anyone who is active in the game should be able to remember all the errata. We're already beyond that point.

I agree with all of the above, best summarized by this:

Exactly right Tint, I wanted to bring back the light to Out Activate and Smash squads in general. Unlike you I have a more optimistic view of pass mechanics in SWM. There are aspects to the game that will still require some lower cost units.

Door control being a big one, I think reinforcements will still be important and some medium act squads will still be competitive if not more than they are now. If the meta shifts towards lower activation beef then we should see direct damage return. Would the meta shift to low act squads with a pass mechanic? Absolutely. Would that be good for the game and community? I think so.

I would like to see us trial a pass mechanic in competitive play for a year and then reevaluate the game and meta once it is over. The minimum we should do is trial Vassal Tournament with a pass mechanic. I do not think we should right it off without first experimenting with it.

I'm whole heartedly against a Daala ban or errata. Add it to the list of 10+ out act and smash squads we have erratad? No thanks, fool me once shame on you... 😅

if there was enough anti-shooter teams in the meta, then i don't think she'd be a problem. i do believe progress is being made towards that over the last few years. If Daala teams go up against something that is good against shooters, is it unbeatable? it doesn't matter to much if you outactive if you can't kill anything and then die because your hp's aren't very high. the Daala squad posted above has at most 50hps on on of its shooters. that isn't scary to deal with to me. If those pieces had triple attack or double attack or twin attack then i think it'd be worse, but they just have a single attack....granted they can get a cannon shot...but its only 40 dmg a pop. jedi with lightsaber defense/shien can survive that and then kill the low hp shooters. there has been only one piece with the Fortified SA but it is also very good vs charging fire. the total damage output isn't as high as many other squads i've seen and its survivablility isn't much with its low hp pieces making up a majority of its shooters. yuuzhan Vong hunters on Quednaks would be a good counter for the vong.....they have cloaked built in and a speed of 10 base...that gives them more range than the charging fire gives and they can clear out all the shooters in one go. you can easily get a Quednak to land 50 dmg hits. the Daala teams don't have swap so they are limited to 12 squares of movement to attack. as long as a cloaked piece can stay in cover and be 13 squares away, they are fine. i think its just a matter of people not playing the right kind of squads in our meta to counter things like Daala. there is always going to be a squad that is top tier but they have counters. if they didn't have a counter, then they need to be considered for banning until a counter can be made. but to see how many counters there are to what Daala can do, i think banning her is very premature.

Just my 2 cents;

-I'm in favor of the ban, because I don't think it's good to just have a piece in indefinite development, getting new errata every few months when it's determined to still be broken. Her card isn't usable at this point? Sure there's plenty of pieces w/ errata, but not to this extent.

-I think Etienne has some good selling points on the PASS mechanic. I'm more conservative on changing core mechanics of a game than banning a single piece. I'm ultimately in favor of changes that improve the game. If we go this route, i'd like to see a few tournaments implement it to see how the community feels about it in practice.

-I also want to note that Etienne has won an AI and SWM championships, and is the only person we see playing this squad. I do wonder what part his own skill is playing in this, and how well daala would handle under less competent players (like me for example) to still pose a problem.

Ah, I thought she'd been few a few changes. I guess I lumped several indirect changes to her- slavers + tempo control + her own card.

I played Snowtroopers in 2014 and won the PA regional with Daala. Then lost in the top 8 at GenCon. Then the errata came. Snowtroopers already didn't work pre-errata and they got the double-whammy of errata to both Daala and Snowtrooper Officer. I gave them a try again anyway in 2019. I made the top 8 in a small field, but lost to eventual champion Lily_Wan/Thrawn in the semi-finals after having beaten her in Swiss.

Literally nothing. It's undefeated