I contend that the Rigged Detonators special ability is a real problem (and NPE) that needs to be addressed, particularly because of how it works with Mira of Nar Shaddaa.




Describing the Problem:

Mira’s combination of Rigged Detonators with Grenades 20 and Overload (plus superb mobility via Mobile Attack and Agile and force points) is extremely powerful…and too powerful for a 28pt character. Currently, only 2 characters in the game have Rigged Detonators: Mira of Nar Shaddaa and Zam Wesell BH. It’s not much of a problem on Zam, since Zam doesn’t have the mobility that she needs to really make it shine, and (without CE help) she can only do 30 dmg with it per target, rather than the 40 dmg that Mira can do. It is quite difficult to fit Zam into most squads, but Mira is a full 15 pts cheaper. Mira shows up in every tournament (usually multiple times)...by contrast, I don’t think I’ve seen Zam more than once in competitive play this year.

Mira with Rigged Detonators functions as if she had an AoE Blast Bug (which is itself a commonly-cited NPE). That is, she does full and unavoidable damage to anyone standing on or beside low objects. Even the Flamethrower 40 ability doesn’t negate the use of Armor…and the only piece with Flamethrower 40 is the YV Firebreather, which costs 46pts!

Mira with Rigged Detonators changes the way that the game is played. Normally, low objects are something that players seek out on a map for its cover and targeting benefits. However, with Rigged Detonators in play, low objects are something that we must work hard to avoid. This is relatively easy on some maps (Throne Room, Bothan Spynet)…but virtually impossible on others if you want to engage in combat (Cantina, Outlaw City, Starport District, Starport Terminal, etc). I don’t think it can be overstated just how significantly this factor, alone, changes the game.

Mira with Rigged Detonators does damage far beyond what she should be capable of. As everyone knows, I enjoy playing Mandalorians. Mira of Nar Shaddaa counts as a Mandalorian and is extremely effective for her cost, so I have used her a lot. In my Championship quarterfinals game just the other day I was playing against a very solid BHC Palpy and Vader of Lothal squad. In that game, Mira (a 28pt piece) did more damage than the 100pt Palpy, even though Palpy survived until the end of the match. She did 80dmg to Palpatine all by herself, and there wasn’t a single thing that he could've done to prevent it.


Why Now?

Why am I talking about Mira only now, when she was released several years ago? Because Mandalorians were still rather weak several years ago. David Weeks won the Championship with them in 2013 (with no Mira in the squad), but apart from that specific squad, Mandalorian squads were never dominant. However, we now have Mando-centric squads of multiple types which are certainly Tier 1:

--The Mandalorian/Montross/Mira/Talon. Competitive squads with Talon have always included Mira...but now that there are more Mandalorians who play nicely with Talon, this build has jumped up several notches. Matt Spry went undefeated in Swiss during the Championship with this squad this year, (and I very nearly played the same squad myself). I only barely squeaked by him in the semi-finals, using a squad type that I have played more than anything else in previous years, and which I think I’ve pretty much mastered. He very easily could've won this game, if only a few dice rolls had gone the other way and/or if I had been a little less comfortable with my squad.

--Any combination of Kelborn/Vindicated/Mira/Tarre/Jangalore/Tactician. And don’t forget other superb new choices, such as Venku Skirata and Montross! The Mandalorian now has several solid uniques with which to build, and these squads can be superb when piloted well. I won the Championship with this build last year, and was 1 round of gambit away from winning it again with virtually the same squad this year.

People have been talking about the strength of Mandalorian squads this year, and whenever Mandos are played in the highest levels of competition, Mira is an auto-include. I believe that, unless we do something about her, we’ll only continue to see more and more of her, not less. If she remains as she is, and if I want a good chance of winning a competitive tournament, I will continue to use Mira...whether in Mando or All-Fringe squads, she will continue to punch far above her weight.


So, in this post I am arguing that Mira of Nar Shaddaa--precisely because of Rigged Detonators--changes the way that the game is played, and she does so in a way that is neither positive nor fair nor enjoyable.

She is also very good when paired with Morrigans suppressive fire in Talon/Jabba squads as the rigged detonator effect isn't just on the grenades but her regular attacks as well which I think is kind of silly. I do think if it worked only on the grenades it may be less broken because she has no defense and would have to be within 6 to use the nades. I do think The map we played our match on is particularly abusive for her though and is also a map that can be exploited by squads with ysilimari and or disruptive as well due to the way the gambit area is designed. I do think changing the rigged detonator ability to only work with grenades/ missles/ mines type abilities would help but Mira specifically may even need to lose overload as double unavoidable nades is still pretty sick. I think if rigged was changed to work only on explosives abilities she could lose overload and maybe gain weapons expert so that she could still blow a door or throw grenades once. Just my thoughts for what they are worth. I do enjoy running Mira, but IMO she does out class several other pieces some of which have significantly higher cost.

Good point. No, I don't think she has been submitted to the BC before. Maybe 'reconsider' is the wrong word...maybe I should've used "rethink" or "errata."

I support changing her. I think the second option would be better than the first one for a couple of reasons, first the reason given above, and second that it's a simpler change so you don't have to look up the errata to remember what it was changed to. But yeah, either way, she's due for a change I think.

Removing RD from her makes her unplayable, IMO. Errata RD (and I know its a bad word) to remove Attacks and Clarify Mines, Grenades, and Missiles doesn't kill the pieces, but at least it makes sense.

If we're raising her cost, here's a cost comparison to Dash RS. He used to be power 10, but I think he's power 9 at this point, just based on the fact that we don't see him as much anymore.

OFFENSE (attacks):
Dash: +6/10dmg x4 DblTwinGMA. Max with Opportunist: +10/20dmg x4 = 80dmg.
Mira: +10/20dmg x2 TwinMobileAgile. Max with BH +14/20dmg x2 = 40dmg. Rigged Detonators makes it stick better.
Cost: Mira +3. RD makes the two characters' max damage output roughly equal, since Mira's will most likely stick but enemies end up avoiding a lot of Dash's damage. Mira gets the advantage (and the cost adjustment) for the higher attack rating and the fact that Dash only does his 80 when getting Opportunist. (And without Opp he often misses entirely anyway.)

OFFENSE (other):
Dash: nothing
Mira: Overloaded Grenades with Rigged Detonators. Area effect option and non-attack option gives her more flexibility, even though it's not more damage output than her attacks.
Cost: Mira +4

DEFENSE:
Dash: 15def, 70hp, Evade
Mira: 17def, 70hp
Cost: Mira -4. Evade more than makes up for Dash's lower def rating.

OTHER:
Dash: Pilot
Mira: Mandalorian, Explosives Expert, Satchel Charge, Force Sense
Cost: Mira +7. Pilot and Mandalorian provide roughly equal access to extra bonuses. Explosives Expert is negligible. But Satchel Charge is immensely valuable. Even if you don't ever use it, the emergency availability means you can go with much less door control fodder, saving 5-10 pts from your squad build. Force Sense is another situational bonus.

Cost suggestions based on comparison to Dash:
Power 10: 36
Power 9: 38
Power 8: 40
Power 7: 42

Obviously there's no "correct" number, but 40 seems like a nice, easy to remember number for her cost. As cost 40/Power 8, you wouldn't see her very often. But even at that cost she could still make an appearance in a tank-heavy meta or a squad where you intentionally want to have fewer activations so you want to avoid door control fodder.

I agree 100% with gholli69: Dash RS is no longer anywhere near a power level 9. I'd put him at a 6, maybe a 7 at best.

He needs the +4/+10 boost in order to be even moderately useful...in Skybuck or with Talon Karrde, etc. Beyond that, he's simply not worth using, so he's not a worthwhile comparison to Mira.

I don't play competitively (for what my opinion is worth) but I still follow it closely. Mira has been a staple since Shadows, that was V-Set 8, we're on V-Set 22 now. I believe this belies a far larger problem at the core of this game. There has never been a rotation. Every piece from Rebel Storm to In The Trenches is legal to play competitively. This is pretty wild compared to almost any other competitive game. But that is off topic from the thread's purpose.


I agree, Mira needs a change.

Flying Arrow has the best solutions.
1. Ban her. It's not like there isn't precedent, Daala is still banned.
2. Re cost her 34 - 40. It's so much easier to remember a point balance than errata text on an SA. I dealt with this my whole time playing Star Wars Destiny and I was always happier to see point cost changes than errata text. 34 - 40 also makes her a more central build around piece than the 28 points of "Oh sure why not for 28 points."

Comparisons to Dash Rendar are fair. Maybe not in direct stats, but in philosophy and in a meta sense. Dash used to be Mira. 28 points, did way more damage than he probably should have, super mobile, and showed up anywhere and everywhere. Wizards never did anything because if it wasn't GOWK it didn't matter.
We are no longer beholden to Wizards. "Oh please master WOTC, can I have some nerfs?" We control our own game now. Don't like something? Let's fix it. I've never understood why communities always drag ass fixing problems once they're given the keys. We need to be more like MTG, where they'll change things all the time based on community feedback. If it works great, thumbs up, pat on the back. If it doesn't, then just change it back, failed experiment. I'm not arguing for snap decisions, I just think a faster speed than glacial when resolving community problems would be good.

TLDR: Thereisnotry is right, time to deal with Mira. Flying Arrow has the best solutions.

I don't think "Mira no longer has Rigged Detonators" will be any harder to remember than a new cost for her, since it's the most significant ability she has and the one that was most responsible for the problem. Plus, it means no one has to change any of their old squads with Mira if they ever want to play one of them again.

I agree with Caedus. Lots of players don't even know Rigged Detonators applies to her attacks. It's not intuitive or make sense. It's not Rigged Headshot.