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Chargers
Posted: Monday, February 1, 2010 4:06:13 AM
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There are a lot of people at SWMGamers.com who are working on options to keep the game going. I applaud their efforts and look forward to the tournaments, etc. It's a great game and all of us want to see that community continue.

Waiting for another company to pick up the game, continue it, come up with a new one will take a while and the Gamers efforts are what is needed to keep the game going until then.

Instead of waiting for that other company to come along, some of us want to be that other company. Yeah, it's a long-shot. But let's try.

Please see this site to see how you can be part of our future.
www.saveswm.proboards.com
imyurhukaberry
Posted: Monday, February 1, 2010 6:22:31 AM
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I have this bookmarked to check out when I get home. ;)
thodafett
Posted: Monday, February 1, 2010 7:33:42 AM
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I checked out the site and published a new thread realting to what I hope to do for the game after it is over.
Chargers
Posted: Monday, February 1, 2010 9:34:55 AM
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Just to clarify, the goal of SaveSWM is to buy the rights and publish a minis game with cards, maps, and plastic figures -- hopefully with the same rule mechanics. This won't happen overnight, it will take a while.

This is separate from the Gamers initiative to keep the tournament scene going and to create virtual card sets. If you want to be part of that, please visit www.SWMGamers.com

Neither effort should hinder the other and there may be an overlap of people. Both are aimed at keeping the community alive. Get involved with one or both. Keep playing the game, support it at your local gaming store, buy the current WotC stuff, and show the next company (hopefully SaveSWM, maybe somebody else) that a SWM game can be financially viable.
shatterpoint7
Posted: Monday, February 1, 2010 9:50:19 AM
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how much would it cost to get the rights to make swm?
Sithborg
Posted: Monday, February 1, 2010 12:11:32 PM
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shatterpoint7 wrote:
how much would it cost to get the rights to make swm?


Just the rights? Well, a number commonly thrown around is 100,000 for the SW License, seems about right for a multi year deal with LFL. Then add in however much WOTC wants for their game mechanics, lets say 10,000. Then there is the actual start up costs. Anyone able to set up manufacturing easily in China?

I would say a start up cost in the couple of million for a company to acquire the SWM rights. Of course, that assumes WOTC is willing to sell their game mechanics, which their message implied as a no.
Eroschilles
Posted: Monday, February 1, 2010 12:26:55 PM
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Sithborg wrote:
shatterpoint7 wrote:
how much would it cost to get the rights to make swm?


Just the rights? Well, a number commonly thrown around is 100,000 for the SW License, seems about right for a multi year deal with LFL. Then add in however much WOTC wants for their game mechanics, lets say 10,000. Then there is the actual start up costs. Anyone able to set up manufacturing easily in China?

I would say a start up cost in the couple of million for a company to acquire the SWM rights. Of course, that assumes WOTC is willing to sell their game mechanics, which their message implied as a no.


I would say a couple of million is a conservative estimate for a company that doesn't have facilities to produce actual minis already set up. Building a factory can get up that high, especially if you need to mass produce. Workers, raw and processed materials, networking, setting up distribution chains, and general marketing could cost a couple of million.

Realistic costs versus potential revenue may be in the red the first year or two for a startup. And that's a conservative guess. May be in the red for closer to 5 years. Gotta think long term for these kinds of projects.
billiv15
Posted: Monday, February 1, 2010 1:23:41 PM
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Eroschilles wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
shatterpoint7 wrote:
how much would it cost to get the rights to make swm?


Just the rights? Well, a number commonly thrown around is 100,000 for the SW License, seems about right for a multi year deal with LFL. Then add in however much WOTC wants for their game mechanics, lets say 10,000. Then there is the actual start up costs. Anyone able to set up manufacturing easily in China?

I would say a start up cost in the couple of million for a company to acquire the SWM rights. Of course, that assumes WOTC is willing to sell their game mechanics, which their message implied as a no.


I would say a couple of million is a conservative estimate for a company that doesn't have facilities to produce actual minis already set up. Building a factory can get up that high, especially if you need to mass produce. Workers, raw and processed materials, networking, setting up distribution chains, and general marketing could cost a couple of million.

Realistic costs versus potential revenue may be in the red the first year or two for a startup. And that's a conservative guess. May be in the red for closer to 5 years. Gotta think long term for these kinds of projects.


Thing is, you don't build a factory. You contract out the work. WotC does not own a factory in China. Further, this isn't all up to WotC. It's up to Hasbro. There are a lot of ifs on it, but to say it's easily a couple of million, isn't necessarily true.
Eroschilles
Posted: Monday, February 1, 2010 1:44:07 PM
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billiv15 wrote:
Eroschilles wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
shatterpoint7 wrote:
how much would it cost to get the rights to make swm?


Just the rights? Well, a number commonly thrown around is 100,000 for the SW License, seems about right for a multi year deal with LFL. Then add in however much WOTC wants for their game mechanics, lets say 10,000. Then there is the actual start up costs. Anyone able to set up manufacturing easily in China?

I would say a start up cost in the couple of million for a company to acquire the SWM rights. Of course, that assumes WOTC is willing to sell their game mechanics, which their message implied as a no.


I would say a couple of million is a conservative estimate for a company that doesn't have facilities to produce actual minis already set up. Building a factory can get up that high, especially if you need to mass produce. Workers, raw and processed materials, networking, setting up distribution chains, and general marketing could cost a couple of million.

Realistic costs versus potential revenue may be in the red the first year or two for a startup. And that's a conservative guess. May be in the red for closer to 5 years. Gotta think long term for these kinds of projects.


Thing is, you don't build a factory. You contract out the work. WotC does not own a factory in China. Further, this isn't all up to WotC. It's up to Hasbro. There are a lot of ifs on it, but to say it's easily a couple of million, isn't necessarily true.


I don't think we were talking about an existing company necessarily starting SWM up again, but a hypothetical situation where a start-up business would be involved. One could contract out to an existing factory, but that's assuming one could find a factory that is willing to work with a new company. Either way, it's rather costly for a start-up business to do.

It would obviously be a lot cheaper and easier if an already established company, like Hasbro, would pick it back up. But if, who, and when are all speculation and hypothetical at this point.
imyurhukaberry
Posted: Monday, February 1, 2010 2:08:05 PM
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Bill is right: you would use someone else's facility to produce your product. It's called outsourcing.

The basic (and I mean basic) rundown would be like this: (process with the minimum investment)
First step, design the miniatures. Either yourself (if you can) or hire someone to do it. The stats are the easy part, the cards are a bit easier than the actual minis, but the miniatures themselves are what takes the longest to produce. Each one has to be designed and the designs/prototypes sent to a company that can handle making the molds. Each miniature requires molds to be created to produce them in-mass. The molds are usually then sent to the company that will produce the actual plastic miniatures. Plastic is then ordered and the production process begins. Once the miniatures are produced, then the painting needs setup. This may be done at another facility as well. (you also should apply for any patents once the designs are done)

While the plastic design is going on, the stats and cards are being designed and created. Again, this is much easier than the plastic components as it is just on paper stock and requires less lead time. Also in this step would be the booster boxes. Similar in process as the cards: design the artwork; have them printed; then assembled. Any promotional artwork and whatnot will be in this process as well. (usually done by a separate department) You will want to send this out before the actual product, hence the name "promotional". This can also be done digitally via the internet and save the cost of printing any said material.

Once the plastic miniatures are done (produced and painted), they will need to be sealed in the bags. Once that is done, the cards and miniatures need to be placed into the booster boxes and sealed. Then the fun task of shipping begins... (hopefully you took preorders!)
(again this is the BASIC idea of how it might be done with the minimum investment)
Eroschilles
Posted: Monday, February 1, 2010 2:20:59 PM
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Outsourcing is cheaper when compared to doing it here in the states, or if it is a small scale operation you are planning on running. But if one were to plan it for long run mass production, owning a factory can reduce costs greatly after X amount of years. It also offers greater control over the production of the good.

But I like your basic rundown, Huk. Maybe add who is going to buy it, and if all the sales are being done directly by the one producing it.
carnorjax1
Posted: Monday, February 1, 2010 2:32:31 PM
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Ok, well back to the point, I doubt any of us have the $$$(no matter how much it is) to buy everything and start churning out minis again. Well, at least not without selling everything we own. ;)
NickName
Posted: Monday, February 1, 2010 2:48:09 PM
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billiv15 wrote:

Thing is, you don't build a factory. You contract out the work. WotC does not own a factory in China. Further, this isn't all up to WotC. It's up to Hasbro. There are a lot of ifs on it, but to say it's easily a couple of million, isn't necessarily true.


Contracting with chinese vendors is true. However, the costs even assuming that are still about on the nose. If you don't somewhere in the realm of a million dollar investment something like this isn't happening. It's a big project. And that assumes WotC would even license the d20 mechanics which seems about likely as, let's say, Gammoreans flying. :)

People should set their expectations correctly. The odds of SWM coming back in the form we know are lottery odds. Planning to win the lottery is generally not a good plan.
Eroschilles
Posted: Monday, February 1, 2010 2:58:52 PM
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NickName wrote:
billiv15 wrote:

Thing is, you don't build a factory. You contract out the work. WotC does not own a factory in China. Further, this isn't all up to WotC. It's up to Hasbro. There are a lot of ifs on it, but to say it's easily a couple of million, isn't necessarily true.


Contracting with chinese vendors is true. However, the costs even assuming that are still about on the nose. If you don't somewhere in the realm of a million dollar investment something like this isn't happening. It's a big project. And that assumes WotC would even license the d20 mechanics which seems about likely as, let's say, Gammoreans flying. :)

People should set their expectations correctly. The odds of SWM coming back in the form we know are lottery odds. Planning to win the lottery is generally not a good plan.


Good thing I just finished building a Gammorean Cannon BigGrin
bigbro911
Posted: Monday, February 1, 2010 3:20:42 PM
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Chargers wrote:
Instead of waiting for that other company to come along, some of us want to be that other company. Yeah, it's a long-shot. But let's try.

Please see this site to see how you can be part of our future.
www.saveswm.proboards.com


Yes, I have heard this before with Heroclix...

The good:
Heroclix got saved. There was a great deal of grass-roots support for the game including a website set up to take fan donations with a desire to buy the property or broker a deal. With SWM, fans supporting the game and even creating new cards for existing figs or customs is a great idea and easier to do than with the "clix" mechanic.

The bad:
In the end, it's debatable grass-roots support really helped Heroclix. A company did end up buying the rights, and I am sure the ton of support helped to validiate the worth of the brand. However the grass-roots website and donations disappeared long before the boosters were on the shelf.

The ugly:
A company saving the day with clarity of vision and proper funding to gain the proper licenses (taking for granted WotC and Lucas being on board) is an extreame long shot at best, but still possible. Fans joining together to do the same...ain't happening

Let's be positive and work to keep the game going by playing and helping the community with constructive suggestions. But please don't think finding the $$$, gaining the rights to use the IP's, and paying kids half way around the world to make and paint you minis is anything less than a million-to-one. (and none of the "never tell me the odds" BS) ;)
carnorjax1
Posted: Monday, February 1, 2010 3:25:59 PM
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bigbro911 wrote:
Chargers wrote:
Instead of waiting for that other company to come along, some of us want to be that other company. Yeah, it's a long-shot. But let's try.

Please see this site to see how you can be part of our future.
www.saveswm.proboards.com


Yes, I have heard this before with Heroclix...

The good:
Heroclix got saved. There was a great deal of grass-roots support for the game including a website set up to take fan donations with a desire to buy the property or broker a deal. With SWM, fans supporting the game and even creating new cards for existing figs or customs is a great idea and easier to do than with the "clix" mechanic.

The bad:
In the end, it's debatable grass-roots support really helped Heroclix. A company did end up buying the rights, and I am sure the ton of support helped to validiate the worth of the brand. However the grass-roots website and donations disappeared long before the bossters were on the shelf.

The ugly:
A company saving the day with clarity of vision and proper funding to gain the proper licenses (taking for granted WotC and Lucas being on board) is an extreame long shot at best, but still possible. Fans joining together to do the same...ain't happening

Let's be positive and work to keep the game going by playing and helping the community with constructive suggestions. But please don't think finding the $$$, gaining the rights to use the IP's, and paying kids half way around the world to make and paint you minis is anything less than a million-to-one. (and none of the "never tell me the odds" BS) ;)


You summed it up completely. People want to help, but in the long run, it won't be enough. BTW: That is a great movie!
bigbro911
Posted: Monday, February 1, 2010 3:28:16 PM
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carnorjax1 wrote:
You summed it up completely. People want to help, but in the long run, it won't be enough


Thanks!! BigGrin

thodafett
Posted: Monday, February 1, 2010 4:57:14 PM
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I have a friend in the Ice cream business who does a lot of outsourcing to China. It isn't all that hard to do, however you do need contacts and quality control is off the outmost importance, meaning no lead paints etc!! Things like this will get your product into a lot of trouble, You have to stay on top of them. He goes to china at least once or twice a year to oversee and be seen.
Chargers
Posted: Tuesday, February 2, 2010 1:44:40 AM
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Bill was correct -- a new company doesn't need to have the factory; they will subcontract it to another company who has the factory. Buying a plant in China is not an easy task; the Chinese government has plenty of red tape.

Huk had a very good summary of the process. There are a lot of steps involved. But it's do-able. Most of it's basic business operations. Most of the delay would be in the process of acquiring the LFL rights and/or WotC mechanics. Heck, finding the mfg plant in China is easier.

I understand the concern of the others who have posted. Yes, it will take a lot of resources -- people and money. There were a couple potential start-ups with HeroClix before NECA came in. (Financing was the biggest hurdle and last year the bank environment was at its worst. Things aren't all rosey now, but better.)

The grass-roots part of it does help show the next company that fans are still there willing to spend their money. There will be a next company. Show your support for the game in the meantime.

The investment part is your chance to be part of that next company. No commitments are required yet. We need to find out how many people are willing and able to be part of it. The more $ we can raise internally before going to the bank for a loan the better. No, it won't be an easy task. But it's one we've taking on.
billiv15
Posted: Tuesday, February 2, 2010 3:14:47 AM
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And I should add this. A couple of million sounds like a lot of money, but it's really not nearly as much as you think. This would be by all stretches a "small business" and you don't need millions to start it. You need a couple hundred thousand generally upfront to get something like this going. Chargers is actually someone who knows a good deal about how these things work, I would take him seriously guys. There are others in the community who also have the kind of business experience, know how, and connections to do something like this, so it's not nearly the stretch it might seem to be.
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