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Dodanna QUestion Options
countrydude82487
Posted: Monday, August 16, 2010 3:30:48 PM
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This came up the Other day and it made my opponent and i wonder. If you Don't Declare how many you are activating with Dodanna, do you activate 1 or 2(without of course saying at the start of the Game they would only activate 1 unless specified.)? IT was ruled that because they didn't declare that they had to activate 2 as it is the normal amount and still legal to activate that many, and that what we both thought also, but We wanted a more official ruling.

Thank you in advance for your help.
EmporerDragon
Posted: Monday, August 16, 2010 4:05:03 PM
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If your opponent does not declare how many activations they are going to do, you must remind them to do so as it is a non-optional effect like evade or force renewal.

Knowingly overlooking a rules mistake of your opponent is considered cheating.
billiv15
Posted: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 12:55:13 AM
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EmporerDragon wrote:
If your opponent does not declare how many activations they are going to do, you must remind them to do so as it is a non-optional effect like evade or force renewal.

Knowingly overlooking a rules mistake of your opponent is considered cheating.


No, I'm pretty sure it is optional and this is incorrect. You default to 2 activations in this case, and must use 2 if you have activated a figure without declaring you are only doing 1.

The funny part about this is that people fear having to activate 2 by forgetting early that they go with the "1 until I say otherwise" line. But in my experience, more often than not, that gets you into more trouble when you actually want to activate 2.

I've coached a number of players to use the right way to play it, which is a default of 2, with the option for 1 and to actually say, "1" before they activate. You tend to get in less trouble this way in most cases.
bigphesta
Posted: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 3:07:12 AM
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neither the SWMini Manager nor the BlooMilk site indicates that you need to announce it at the start of your phase. So I was just wondering, what does the actual card say, since I don't have the fig but have seen it play and was considering using it on the online site

BlooMilk Text : "Commander Effect - You can choose to activate only 1 character in each phase. (This includes Droid and Savage characters.)"

SWMini Manager has the exact same text. I guess I'm confused where it says you have to announce at the start of your activation phase
billiv15
Posted: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 3:55:12 AM
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To be honest BP, I don't remember where it comes from specifically, and I couldn't find it in a quick search, but I am certain that it's because the choice must occur before beginning the "phase". Once you begin activating a figure, the time has passed to change the choice from the normal number. It's a timing thing. I just don't remember specifically where it comes from, but it's been the rule of the game since Rebel Storm and Grand Moff Tarkin.
Sithborg
Posted: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 7:53:11 AM
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Yeah, Grand Moff Tarkin is the first example of this being answered, but they work just like Careful Shot in a way. Generally, when an effect is optional, you MUST declare it if you want to use it. Which is why the activating 2 unless I otherwise say is better than activating 1 unless I say so.
bigphesta
Posted: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 8:51:04 AM
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I guess you're still not answering my question. Where does it say you have to announce before your first activation if you're doing just one? I think its a bit different from Careful shot because you have to announce that you're not doing something (moving) before you get that. There's nothing on the card that indicates that you have to announce before your first activation that you're only doing one activation. The way it is written, you have the choice at any time. I mean, Mobile attack is optional and you don't have to announce that before moving, correct?
Sithborg
Posted: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 9:30:10 AM
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The FAQ, under Grand Moff Tarkin. This is the precedent that if you modify the number of activations in a phase, you must choose at the start of the phase.

Pretty much, General Dodonna is affecting your phase, so you must use his CE when the phase starts.

Going back to the Careful Shot example, as it is the one that most applies. You cannot declare that you are using it once you have rolled the attack. This is similar, in that you cannot choose how many activations you want in a phase after you have taken your first turn in that phase.
Segastorm
Posted: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 9:35:05 AM
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The CE states that you can choose to activate one character in each phase. So in that phase, you must choose before you start your phase how many characters you activate when the phase starts, not after you activate a character. For the whole declaring it thing, that's as much a part of a rule as miniatures etiquite.

Ex: If your opponent wants to see the stats of your characters, you must allow him to do so. If he doesn't ask, you don't have to show him the cards.

So in short for the declaring thing, if your opponent asks to know in advance how many characters you're going to activate, you must declare it at the start of a phase, otherwise, just say when you're done, but since it seems like it's a more of a strict rule than etiquite, I would ask before the match starts.
bigphesta
Posted: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 10:37:07 AM
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Sithborg wrote:
The FAQ, under Grand Moff Tarkin. This is the precedent that if you modify the number of activations in a phase, you must choose at the start of the phase.

Pretty much, General Dodonna is affecting your phase, so you must use his CE when the phase starts.

Going back to the Careful Shot example, as it is the one that most applies. You cannot declare that you are using it once you have rolled the attack. This is similar, in that you cannot choose how many activations you want in a phase after you have taken your first turn in that phase.
Two follow up questions...

Where is the FAQ?

Going back to the Mobile Attack example, you can move three spaces, attack, then decide where if anywhere you're going to move. This allows you to see the result before making the final decision. Why is this different? Based on what you're saying, shouldn't you have to declare where you're going to end up after making the first moves and before determining the results of the attack?
bigphesta
Posted: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 11:03:43 AM
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Sithborg wrote:
The FAQ, under Grand Moff Tarkin. This is the precedent that if you modify the number of activations in a phase, you must choose at the start of the phase.

Pretty much, General Dodonna is affecting your phase, so you must use his CE when the phase starts.

Going back to the Careful Shot example, as it is the one that most applies. You cannot declare that you are using it once you have rolled the attack. This is similar, in that you cannot choose how many activations you want in a phase after you have taken your first turn in that phase.
I pulled this from the WoC site

Q: Grand Moff Tarkin's commander effect reads: "If this character has line of sight to an enemy at the start of a phase, you can activate up to three characters in that phase. (This can include Droid and Savage characters.)" Does this completely override the normal rule of two activations? That is, can you activate a single character during a phase, or even none?
A: Grand Moff Tarkin allows you to activate one, two, or three characters per phase instead of the normal two characters per phase.
Q: Does Grand Moff Tarkin need to have line of sight to the allies he is activating?
A: No. Tarkin isn't activating the characters, you (the player) are. Tarkin only needs line of sight to an enemy at the start of any given phase.
Q: Can Grand Moff Tarkin use this ability more than once per round?
A: Yes, it applies at the beginning of every one of your phases.


I pulled this from the Holocron

Grand Moff Tarkin

Q: Grand Moff Tarkin's commander effect reads: "If this character has line of sight to an enemy at the start of a phase, you can activate up to 3 characters in that phase. (This can include Droid and Savage characters.)" Does this completely override the normal rule of 2 activations? That is, can you activate a single character during a phase, or even none?

A: Grand Moff Tarkin allows you to activate one, two, or three characters per phase instead of the normal two characters per phase.



Q: Does Grand Moff Tarkin need to have line of sight to the allies he is activating?

A: No. Tarkin isn't activating the characters, you (the player) are. Tarkin only needs line of sight to an enemy at the start of any given phase.



Q: Can Grand Moff Tarkin use this ability more than once per round?

A: Yes, it applies at the beginning of every one of your phases.



not trying to be a jerk here, but I'm not seeing what you're saying.
jedispyder
Posted: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 11:19:55 AM
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"Q: Can Grand Moff Tarkin use this ability more than once per round?
A: Yes, it applies at the beginning of every one of your phases."
This is the one they've been referencing. It says you make the choice at the beginning of each phase.
bigphesta
Posted: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 11:27:20 AM
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jedispyder wrote:
"Q: Can Grand Moff Tarkin use this ability more than once per round?
A: Yes, it applies at the beginning of every one of your phases."
This is the one they've been referencing. It says you make the choice at the beginning of each phase.
Wow, some terrible wording there but ok. To take "have to announce" out of "applies" is stretching it a bit.
EmporerDragon
Posted: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 1:23:22 PM
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bigphesta wrote:

Where is the FAQ?


The definitive FAQ can be found on the Holocron. Anything found on WotC's site is simply an outdated piece of information that happened to escape the purge.
Sithborg
Posted: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 1:44:14 PM
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bigphesta wrote:
jedispyder wrote:
"Q: Can Grand Moff Tarkin use this ability more than once per round?
A: Yes, it applies at the beginning of every one of your phases."
This is the one they've been referencing. It says you make the choice at the beginning of each phase.
Wow, some terrible wording there but ok. To take "have to announce" out of "applies" is stretching it a bit.


No, not really. You have to decide to use Dodonna's CE at the beginning of the phase. And to do that, you sort of have to specify it to your opponent at the start of the phase, since I don't think telepathic gameplay works right now.
billiv15
Posted: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 11:42:39 PM
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So let me get this straight. You are actually lamenting that Dodonna isn't more powerful???? Lol.
bigphesta
Posted: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 1:58:34 AM
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Here's one slight difference in the text of the two that I think challenges this ruling. Tarkin's text explicitly states "AT THE START OF EACH PHASE" while Dodona's states "you can choose to activate only 1 char. in each phase". There is nothing in his text that states "at the start", as oppossed to Tarkin's which states "at the start"
billiv15
Posted: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 5:31:59 AM
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bigphesta wrote:
Here's one slight difference in the text of the two that I think challenges this ruling. Tarkin's text explicitly states "AT THE START OF EACH PHASE" while Dodona's states "you can choose to activate only 1 char. in each phase". There is nothing in his text that states "at the start", as oppossed to Tarkin's which states "at the start"


Doesn't matter in the least. The rule is (based on a long precedent) that you must decide at the beginning of a phase if you are going to alter your activation total or not. It applies to all tempo control pieces in the game. You can read whatever you want, however you want to, and it won't change that this has been the official ruling made by Nickname, and supported by Rob the designer as his intent to how it's supposed to work.

It's specifically this way for Dodonna because it makes the player have to decide 1-2 before seeing what happens with 1. You are being overly literal in reading what you want out of his CE.

This game works in segments, and generally speaking, you can't break up a section of it without the figure specifically saying it can do so.

What I mean by this is the order of a round. Generally you roll init first, then the winner decides who will go first. Once the player going first begins to activate, you cannot then go back and change your mind on the init, because the timing for that choice has ended. The same is true here. The timing for choosing to change the normal activation rule, is at the beginning of a phase. Once you move on from that part of the round, you cannot go back to it later.

If you think that isn't clear, take the following example. Recon gives you two init rolls and the player can choose either one. Let's say you also had a figure with reserves on a roll of a 1, and your init rolls were 15,1 and your opponent's roll was 14. You can either choose reserves and lose init, or win init and forgo the reserves. Once you make that choice, you cannot go back and change your mind later in the round can you? Obviously not. Yet there is nothing in the recon ability that specifically says you must choose at the start of the round.

So according to your argument, I could actually change my roll mid round and claim my reserves correct? Of course not. But the only reason it works this way, is because the timing of the way the game is played means that init must be fully determined before you move onto the the player phases - even though nothing in the recon ability states anything like that. The same is true of Dodonna. You must decide 1-2 at the start of the phase before you begin activating, because that is the time in the round that is designated to do so, based on a long precedent from Rebel Storm. All tempo control figures work this way.

Another example are the "end of turn" events. Some figures can do a variety of things at the "end of turn". However, you must "end the turn" before you can access them - such as using override. Once you do so, you cannot go back to the attack or move parts of a turn. Again, nothing specifically says you couldn't other than the timing of the game. "End of turn" is a point in time that once begun cannot be undone. This is how the game functions. You are basically arguing that in one case (dodonna) you should be able to go back in time based on an argument of "silence". That is incorrect because in this rule set, which is an exception based rule set, the only way you can ever do something that breaks the normal rules is if the ability specifically says you can do so. Saying nothing, does not mean it is ok. Everything in this game works in the reverse of that. It must say it, in order to do it.

Case in point. Using your own example of mobile attack. The only reason movement can be broken up into two different time segments, is specifically because mobile says you can do so. Dodonna does not say that you can choose later in the phase, and it would have to specifically say that it can be done at any time in a phase to allow what you want it to say. Since it does not, the normal rule applies, which is the precedent that these choices are made at the start of a phase, before activations begin.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 6:17:12 AM
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bigphesta wrote:
Here's one slight difference in the text of the two that I think challenges this ruling. Tarkin's text explicitly states "AT THE START OF EACH PHASE" while Dodona's states "you can choose to activate only 1 char. in each phase". There is nothing in his text that states "at the start", as oppossed to Tarkin's which states "at the start"


Based on the FAQ that you quoted, you're absolutely right. Dodonna is different from Tarkin. Is there a separate FAQ section for Dodonna? (Not sure.)

Regardless of how you read the FAQ, though, the authorities have stated that Dodonna works like Tarkin - you have to declare at the beginning of the phase how many you're activating. The authorities in this case include the designer (Rob), the official rules interpreter (NickName), this forum's rules guru (Sithborg), and the FAQ writer (whoever it is - I think it was one of the 3 I just mentioned). So while I agree that I wouldn't reach that conclusion about Dodonna just from the FAQ about Tarkin, the ruling is still clear now that you've asked. Smile
NickName
Posted: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 12:27:28 PM
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I wrote the FAQ since 2007ish.

No specific entry was considered necessary for Dodonna since all the Tarkin precidents were considered to apply.

Sithborg's answer is correct, as was Bill's explanation for why.

This was all covered on the WotC rules forum long ago and a Search should turn it up. Or you can ask the question there again if you'd like the answer in "official" form.

Arguing it at this late stage is kind of pointless.
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