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Poggle/leia + muun tactics Options
adamb0nd
Posted: Saturday, January 22, 2011 5:06:51 AM
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How does hoth leia or poggles ce interact with tactics broker? As is, I say it goes tactics broker defeats the piece, save 16 negates the defeat, but tactics broker still gives your opponent a 1 even if the piece is not defeated.
billiv15
Posted: Saturday, January 22, 2011 5:28:50 AM
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adamb0nd wrote:
How does hoth leia or poggles ce interact with tactics broker? As is, I say it goes tactics broker defeats the piece, save 16 negates the defeat, but tactics broker still gives your opponent a 1 even if the piece is not defeated.


That would be wrong. Tactics broker must defeat the piece, you cannot make a save to keep it alive. Pretty sure this is covered in the FAQ. Did you check there first?
jedispyder
Posted: Saturday, January 22, 2011 5:41:01 AM
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Both of Leia's and Poggle's CE states "would be defeated" yet the Tactics Broker straight up states "this characters is defeated" so there is uncertainty about it. Thus you cannot use the CEs to resurrect them.
Kaxel Vofer
Posted: Monday, January 24, 2011 4:00:46 AM
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I think that there are two diferent actions to resolve, first the MTB defeat the Chatracter, and then you could use the CEof Leia or Poggle, because the hability need to be defeat, but not to keep defeat, greettings.
billiv15
Posted: Monday, January 24, 2011 7:30:34 AM
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Kaxel Vofer wrote:
I think that there are two diferent actions to resolve, first the MTB defeat the Chatracter, and then you could use the CEof Leia or Poggle, because the hability need to be defeat, but not to keep defeat, greettings.

Wrong, this is covered in the FAQ I believe. You cannot combine the two abilities. MTB must defeat the figure, there is no save allowed to bring it back to life.
Kaxel Vofer
Posted: Monday, January 24, 2011 11:44:15 AM
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billiv15 wrote:
Kaxel Vofer wrote:
I think that there are two diferent actions to resolve, first the MTB defeat the Chatracter, and then you could use the CEof Leia or Poggle, because the hability need to be defeat, but not to keep defeat, greettings.

Wrong, this is covered in the FAQ I believe. You cannot combine the two abilities. MTB must defeat the figure, there is no save allowed to bring it back to life.


So it need to mantain dead???, or the saves apply when was defeated by an attack, not an ability???, greettings.
imyurhukaberry
Posted: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 12:10:27 AM
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The key to all this is the glossary definition for defeat/defeated:
defeat/defeated: A character is defeated when its Hit Points drop to 0 or lower. Remove defeated characters from the battle map. (u/l mine)

If you do not fulfill all the parts including the last part of the definition, removing the character, then the character is not defeated.
jedispyder
Posted: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 1:14:06 AM
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An easy way to think about Leia's/Poggle's CE is to think of it as a CE version of Avoid Defeat. You cannot use Avoid Defeat when you use Tactics Broker. As I stated all of these before, the biggest reason is that Avoid Defeat/the CEs state "would be defeated" and Tactics Broker says "is defeated" which is a very big difference.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 1:24:42 AM
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jedispyder wrote:
An easy way to think about Leia's/Poggle's CE is to think of it as a CE version of Avoid Defeat. You cannot use Avoid Defeat when you use Tactics Broker. As I stated all of these before, the biggest reason is that Avoid Defeat/the CEs state "would be defeated" and Tactics Broker says "is defeated" which is a very big difference.


On the one hand, I don't mean to be nitpicky. On the other hand this is the rules forum, and that's kind of the point. BigGrin

The fact that Tactics Broker says "is defeated" does not change its interaction with Avoid Deafeat or the CEs. Avoid Defeat and the CEs step in right before a character is defeated and potentially prevent it. The rulebook also says "is defeated" for when a character's hit points reach zero, so in that sense there is no difference with Tactics Broker.

However, Tactics Broker's glossary doesn't say "is defeated". It says "Remove the chosen character from play (it counts as defeated)," which is a big difference. The actual step of being defeated is skipped and they go straight to being removed from play. The 'defeated' characteristic is applied after the fact.

Even given that, I still think it would have been debatable. The real reason in my mind that Avoid Defeat and the CE don't trigger on Tactics Broker is because that's what the FAQ says. This is a situation that needed a clarification, and I'm glad we have one. Smile
FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 1:28:37 AM
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imyurhukaberry wrote:
The key to all this is the glossary definition for defeat/defeated:
defeat/defeated: A character is defeated when its Hit Points drop to 0 or lower. Remove defeated characters from the battle map. (u/l mine)

If you do not fulfill all the parts including the last part of the definition, removing the character, then the character is not defeated.


The definition clarifies that the Tactics Broker wouldn't grant the initiative benefit unless the character is actually defeated, but we have to look elsewhere to answer the question about whether the CEs or Avoid Defeat would trigger when trying to use Tactics Broker. (They don't trigger, according to the FAQ.)
imyurhukaberry
Posted: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 1:36:03 AM
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Actually, it says it must be removed from play...

Tactics Broker: Once per round before initiative is determined, if this character is in your squad, choose one other character in your squad. Remove the chosen character from play (it counts as defeated) and choose an opponent. That opponent’s initiative check result is automatically 1. If a tie requires rerolling initiative, this ability cannot be used again for tie-breaking. (u/l mine)

FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 1:41:08 AM
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Yep.
imyurhukaberry
Posted: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 1:51:50 AM
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Hmm...what's really ironic is the wording on the CE:
Poggle the Lesser
Whenever a Geonosian ally would be defeated, with a save of 16, it instead immediately returns to play with full Hit Points. Geonosian allies gain Self Destruct 20. (u/l mine)

The underlined part could lead one think that it was actually removed from play (fulfulling the Tactics Broker stipulation), but then returns to play. Interesting...
imyurhukaberry
Posted: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 1:56:42 AM
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But just in case anyone is confused...here's the answer from the FAQ:

Princess Leia, Hoth Commander
Q: Does your opponent get points for a character that makes the save and do other potential "when defeated" abilities occur?

A: No. This character is not defeated if it makes the save. The listed effects occur instead of being defeated.

Mandelmauler
Posted: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 1:58:47 AM
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imyurhukaberry wrote:
(it counts as defeated)


For scoring purposes only, ie the opponent get the kill points.
imyurhukaberry
Posted: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 2:09:18 AM
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Mandelmauler wrote:
imyurhukaberry wrote:
(it counts as defeated)


For scoring purposes only, ie the opponent get the kill points.


But only if it does not make the save...
Mandelmauler
Posted: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 2:33:06 AM
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WRONG. The character is removed from the board and the opponent get the kill points. There is no possibility of a save from Leia or Poggle because it was not defeated.

From the "Resolving Effects" steps on the Holocron:
...
XIII. Resolve any remaining "when defeated" effects such as Impulsive Shot, Impulsive Sweep, Self-Destruct, Cleave, Rolling Cleave, Mon Mothma's commander effect, and so on. Use the simultaneous effects rule as usual. As in previous steps, Impulsive Shot and Impulsive Sweep can begin new attack sequences that interrupt this sequence; resolve the new attack completely, then continue where you left off with the original attack.

XIV. Remove the defeated character from the battle grid.


[wrong: see explanation below]
Obviously, the Leia and Poggle saves occur in step XIII.
Effectively, the definition of Tactics Broker skips directly to step XIV without going through step XIII.
Kaxel Vofer
Posted: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 3:20:21 AM
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Mandelmauler wrote:
WRONG. The character is removed from the board and the opponent get the kill points. There is no possibility of a save from Leia or Poggle because it was not defeated.

From the "Resolving Effects" steps on the Holocron:
...
XIII. Resolve any remaining "when defeated" effects such as Impulsive Shot, Impulsive Sweep, Self-Destruct, Cleave, Rolling Cleave, Mon Mothma's commander effect, and so on. Use the simultaneous effects rule as usual. As in previous steps, Impulsive Shot and Impulsive Sweep can begin new attack sequences that interrupt this sequence; resolve the new attack completely, then continue where you left off with the original attack.

XIV. Remove the defeated character from the battle grid.


Obviously, the Leia and Poggle saves occur in step XIII.
Effectively, the definition of Tactics Broker skips directly to step XIV without going through step XIII.


Ok, you clarify this point, greettings.
Sithborg
Posted: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 3:47:03 AM
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Mandelmauler wrote:
WRONG. The character is removed from the board and the opponent get the kill points. There is no possibility of a save from Leia or Poggle because it was not defeated.

From the "Resolving Effects" steps on the Holocron:
...
XIII. Resolve any remaining "when defeated" effects such as Impulsive Shot, Impulsive Sweep, Self-Destruct, Cleave, Rolling Cleave, Mon Mothma's commander effect, and so on. Use the simultaneous effects rule as usual. As in previous steps, Impulsive Shot and Impulsive Sweep can begin new attack sequences that interrupt this sequence; resolve the new attack completely, then continue where you left off with the original attack.

XIV. Remove the defeated character from the battle grid.


Obviously, the Leia and Poggle saves occur in step XIII.
Effectively, the definition of Tactics Broker skips directly to step XIV without going through step XIII.


Incorrect. Since the piece is considered defeated, those abilities skip to step 13, since you resolve all "when defeated" effects with those abilities. Effects that prevent defeat happen in step 12.
Lord_Ball
Posted: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 4:29:41 AM
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What it all boils down to is that:

Counting something as being defeated is not the same as that thing being defeated, per the rules a character is only defeated through loss of HP, certain abilities cause an instant hp reduction to 0 (Disintegration on large and smaller figures/failed skiff save, etc). When a character is removed from play by other means it's not actually defeated, however for winning conditions (scenarios/scoring) it is treated as such.
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