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Poll Question : CE grants ability to spies. Which do you prefer? (Poll is closed)
Choice Votes Statistics
Sneak 6 22.222222 %
Sneak Away 0 0.000000 %
Deep Cover 1 3.703703 %
Infiltration 19 70.370370 %
Information Retrieval 0 0.000000 %
Objective 2/20 1 3.703703 %

Spies! Options
FlyingArrow
Posted: Wednesday, March 2, 2011 4:28:12 AM
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Here are some thoughts to make spies more interesting (and more, well, spy-like). If a new CE granted one of these abilities to allied spies, which one would you prefer?

Sneak:
If this character begins and ends its turn in Low Objects, this character may move through enemies and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Sneak Away: Whenever this character is targeted, on a save of 11 you may remove this character from the board and place in your starting zone.

Deep Cover: +4 attack, +20 damage while in the opponent's starting zone.

Infiltration: On this character's turn, doors open immediately when this character moves adjacent to them.

Information Retrieval:
If this character is adjacent to an enemy commander in the opponent's starting zone, allies gain It's a Trap for the rest of the skirmish.

Objective 2/20: At the beginning of the skirmish, select a square in the enemy's starting zone. If this character ends its move on that square, remove 20 damage from each of up to 2 allies. (Or adjust 2/20 to other numbers.)
Lord_Ball
Posted: Wednesday, March 2, 2011 5:45:39 AM
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I think infiltration offers the best Gameplay.

Sneak - A bit Spy-ish, but seems a bit over complicated for the benefit.

Sneak Away - this one just feels cheesy to me

Deep Cover - the benefits don't seem to translate well to the ability name, and Spies generally shouldn't be big damage dealers - the are really more a support role (hence how they usually have Spotter).

Information Retrieval - Good support role ability, but rather than giving everyone It's a Trap I think it'd be better as a Counter for Cloaked than stealth.

Objective - Personally I don't feel like this as defined is very spy-like at all.
imyurhukaberry
Posted: Wednesday, March 2, 2011 6:22:59 AM
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Interesting...
Not sure any of the mentioned abilities really act like "spying".
Perhaps something that affects the enemies Initiative result. Ex: -4 init, or cancels Master Tactician, etc.
Heck, with the addition of the Tactician SA, and the new Revan, in DOTF, taking the enemy initiative down can be a really big help.
Squid89
Posted: Wednesday, March 2, 2011 6:31:29 AM
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I like the Sneak ability for a "spy" - like wallclimber, but on the ground.

I like the Infiltration ability, but for something else besides a spy - more of a tech role in my mind.
SquelchDog
Posted: Wednesday, March 2, 2011 7:34:56 AM
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Cool topic Flying Arrow. I voted for Infiltration. That one really sounded the best to me. Deep Cover is a close second though. Information Retrieval would be my third choice. ThumpUp
Big D
Posted: Wednesday, March 2, 2011 10:16:03 AM
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Infiltration.
hothie
Posted: Wednesday, March 2, 2011 10:52:55 AM
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Long ago I devised a custom SA called "Intelligence-Cancels enemy Reserves Special Abilities."

I thought it would be good for pieces like Black Sun, maybe Mon Mothma or Garm for the Rebels, Winter, etc. It could really be used in any faction, IMO.

Seeing as how there are very few pieces with Reserves, I know it's a bit situational, but could be very effective in those situations. Perhaps Spies would have Intelligence, no? :)
qvos
Posted: Wednesday, March 2, 2011 11:23:21 AM
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Infiltration looks sweet
Lily_Wan
Posted: Wednesday, March 2, 2011 11:35:03 AM
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hothie wrote:
Long ago I devised a custom SA called "Intelligence-Cancels enemy Reserves Special Abilities."

I thought it would be good for pieces like Black Sun, maybe Mon Mothma or Garm for the Rebels, Winter, etc. It could really be used in any faction, IMO.

Seeing as how there are very few pieces with Reserves, I know it's a bit situational, but could be very effective in those situations. Perhaps Spies would have Intelligence, no? :)


That's a good SA you made. I personally can see it on a unique piece, as it might make an otherwise playable non-unique cost-inefficient.
Darthbane53
Posted: Wednesday, March 2, 2011 12:20:05 PM
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I would go for infiltration. Most usefull and IMO not a total game changer.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Wednesday, March 2, 2011 12:22:47 PM
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Lord_Ball wrote:
I think infiltration offers the best Gameplay.

Sneak - A bit Spy-ish, but seems a bit over complicated for the benefit.

Sneak Away - this one just feels cheesy to me

Deep Cover - the benefits don't seem to translate well to the ability name, and Spies generally shouldn't be big damage dealers - the are really more a support role (hence how they usually have Spotter).

Information Retrieval - Good support role ability, but rather than giving everyone It's a Trap I think it'd be better as a Counter for Cloaked than stealth.

Objective - Personally I don't feel like this as defined is very spy-like at all.


Thanks for the comments. The idea behind Objective was to give the team a great benefit if the spy is able to find the "secret plans" or whatever. So say the secret plans are at the selected square, the benefit triggers if he gets there. Not sure what benefit should go there, but maybe you're not a fan of the concept in the first place.

Deep Cover - maybe I've been watching too much Burn Notice, but I don't have a problem with spies dealing damage.

Sneak Away is really just an improved version of Leia, Hoth's CE. I thought the idea of the spy sneaking away in the shadows made sense.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Wednesday, March 2, 2011 12:41:44 PM
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Squid89 wrote:

I like the Infiltration ability, but for something else besides a spy - more of a tech role in my mind.


Seems to be the popular pick - I really didn't know which one would prove most popular.

I liken it to walking in behind open doors rather than rigging the door open, but a spy doing any sort of infiltration would need some technical skills anyway. Note that it doesn't open doors that are closed with Override, and there's still a normal door check at the end of the turn.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Wednesday, March 2, 2011 2:00:12 PM
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imyurhukaberry wrote:

Not sure any of the mentioned abilities really act like "spying".


They all deal with sneaking around without being seen or getting benefits for gaining access to things you wouldn't normally access (i.e. getting into the enemy's starting zone). Not spies in the sense of joining the other side's squad without them knowing, though. That's true.
njarnagin
Posted: Wednesday, March 2, 2011 3:12:13 PM
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Cool thread, and cool ability ideas. Perhaps make more threads like this
Lord_Ball
Posted: Wednesday, March 2, 2011 11:28:02 PM
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FlyingArrow wrote:

Thanks for the comments. The idea behind Objective was to give the team a great benefit if the spy is able to find the "secret plans" or whatever. So say the secret plans are at the selected square, the benefit triggers if he gets there. Not sure what benefit should go there, but maybe you're not a fan of the concept in the first place.

Deep Cover - maybe I've been watching too much Burn Notice, but I don't have a problem with spies dealing damage.

Sneak Away is really just an improved version of Leia, Hoth's CE. I thought the idea of the spy sneaking away in the shadows made sense.


Yeah I'm not a fan of objective - mainly due to the removal of Damage just seems wierd for a spy.

As for Deep Cover, I don't have an issue with Spies dealing damage (on occasion), but I think Cunning/Opportunist are good enough and valid boosts for a spy without needing a new oddly named (with cover in the name it seems like it should be more cover oriented) ability.

Sneak Away just seems like it could be more annoying than Bombad Gungan, unless it was on a unique only.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Thursday, March 3, 2011 5:02:15 AM
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Lord_Ball wrote:

As for Deep Cover, I don't have an issue with Spies dealing damage (on occasion), but I think Cunning/Opportunist are good enough and valid boosts for a spy without needing a new oddly named (with cover in the name it seems like it should be more cover oriented) ability.


Not sure if you were just thinking of Cover in the Star Wars sense. This is just referring to being 'undercover' and part of the enemy's team but still working for you. An abstraction, for sure.

Here's another thought about being undercover, less abstract but it's pretty radical I think:

Undercover: This character sets up in your starting zone but is considered to be part of your opponent's squad. Your opponent decides when to activate the character, but you take its turn. When this character would be activated, you may voluntarily "break cover" and this character joins your squad for the rest of the skirmish. When breaking cover, the character is not activated and does not count as one of your opponent's activations.

Could cause targeting problems for you since he could be the nearest enemy when you don't want him to be. I also didn't think through the interactions with Betrayal or specify who gets the points if he's defeated before breaking cover. (The opponent should get the points.) Anyway, I didn't include it because it's already pretty complicated and I didn't even cover everything.

Quote:

Sneak Away just seems like it could be more annoying than Bombad Gungan, unless it was on a unique only.


Goodness no - it wouldn't turn your attack back on yourself, and even if the spy gets away he's at least out of your hair for a round or two.

Thanks!
FlyingArrow
Posted: Thursday, March 3, 2011 5:11:28 AM
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Lord_Ball wrote:

Yeah I'm not a fan of objective - mainly due to the removal of Damage just seems wierd for a spy.


Yeah, I wasn't sure what to use as the 'benefit,' but I like the idea of reaching the starting zone for a big power-up. Huk mentioned initiative control, which might be a good idea. Something like this:

Objective: Before setup, designate a square in the opponent's starting zone and an allied commander. If this character ends its move on that square, opponent's special abilities and commander effects that affect initiative are canceled and the designated allied commander gains Master Tactician until the end of the skirmish.
imyurhukaberry
Posted: Thursday, March 3, 2011 5:41:01 AM
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hothie wrote:
Long ago I devised a custom SA called "Intelligence-Cancels enemy Reserves Special Abilities."

I thought it would be good for pieces like Black Sun, maybe Mon Mothma or Garm for the Rebels, Winter, etc. It could really be used in any faction, IMO.

Seeing as how there are very few pieces with Reserves, I know it's a bit situational, but could be very effective in those situations. Perhaps Spies would have Intelligence, no? :)


I like it.
Along those lines, and fitting in with the thread, what about an SA that negates Reinforcements?
I think that would be awesome.
Lord_Ball
Posted: Thursday, March 3, 2011 5:45:02 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Lord_Ball wrote:
Sneak Away just seems like it could be more annoying than Bombad Gungan, unless it was on a unique only.


Goodness no - it wouldn't turn your attack back on yourself, and even if the spy gets away he's at least out of your hair for a round or two.

Thanks!

While true that in small doses it's not nearly as bad, but facing an army of these would just kill the fun factor, and lead to a most dissatisfying victory.
hothie
Posted: Thursday, March 3, 2011 6:25:40 AM
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imyurhukaberry wrote:
what about an SA that negates Reinforcements?
I think that would be awesome.


Well, I am against such an SA because the cost of Reinforcements are built into the cost of the character itself. Now you're paying 27 points for a 20 hp Lobot with Override rather than getting the 20 pts built into his cost. I personally don't like that.
So I don't want to mess with SA's that negate Reinforcements.

I chose negating Reserves because the cost of building Intelligence into your character is a gamble, meaning if you face a squad that doesn't have anyone with Reserves (which as I said is a small number to begin with), you're now paying for a useless SA. So I tried to make my custom piece at least do something else so as not to be worthless if not facing a Reserves piece. (Mine was Black Sun Intelligence, built like the Bith Vigo but melee, a few less SA's, and costed about 17 or so.) But if you do face a character with Reserves, it could be very helpful to have a piece with Intelligence. My thought was that if a character (possibly a spy. :) had intel on what forces were coming to aid the enemy, they could take steps to cancel those reserves out.

Sorry to hijack the thread. I was just saying that if we're playing in the "custom SA's for Spies" tree that I think Intelligence would be a good one to consider. As for the ones you proposed, I like Infiltration the best.
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