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Thoughts: V-Set cards that provide an ability and have a cost but no character Options
Mandelmauler
Posted: Thursday, March 17, 2011 3:27:58 AM
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In one of the "what would you like to see..." threads, brennan suggested

brennan wrote:
Darth Revans Holocron, Darth Banes holocron, Andeddu holocron etc.
they could just be a card ( no character required) and could be added to the chosen allies point cost and abilities


Is this something that the design team should think about? Cards that provide abilities to the squad or an individual character, that have a squad cost, but no additional character associated with it?

I would make them "Unique" (only 1 per squad). Only 1 per character. They also need to be assigned at the beginning of the tournament (no adjustments after seeing opponents squad).

I am thinking "NOT" because it would be adding a SA/CE through cards and we already have that mechanism by using characters.

But, it would be cool to customize individual characters by adding a "jedi Hunter, C=10" card or "Character gains Evade, C=8" to boost its stats.
adamb0nd
Posted: Thursday, March 17, 2011 5:08:46 AM
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I have always wanted to see a mechanic like this added to the game. I originally thought of things like grenades, saber styles, and jetpacks that could be purchased at start up and given to a character. I think it would be great.

The biggest problem is that these abilities tend to have arbitrary costs, so it is hard to find a good "price" for them.

Likewise, the cost shouldn't be the same. Giving a character like Mace windu flight should cost more than giving a battledroid flight. I'm not really sure how to make this work where it flows nicely with the game.
The Celestial Warrior
Posted: Thursday, March 17, 2011 6:22:43 AM
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Too convoluted too. People have a hard enough time remembering rules, as well as what characters do what. Now you want to add a whole new level of complexity to the game. Not too mention how easy it would be to try to cheat by chaning who has the card mid game.
CerousMutor
Posted: Thursday, March 17, 2011 7:33:34 AM
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It depends on how its used I'd say.
If it was for competetive Gaming rules I'd possibly agree but if it was for normal average gaming rules I'd disagree.

And to sort it out, I'd give it 'cost X' but with an abilitiy that adds 20 to the cost of the 'host' character.
Simple blanket cost for any ability, and if the host is defeated your opponent can pick it up and use it.
Then you have a capture the flag style format. Breath a little new life and creativity in to the game.



Weapon/holocron
fringe
Cost X

HP -
At -
Def -
Dam -

xxxxx (this card can only be assigned to one character. That character autommatically gains 20 to its printed cost. Assigned character gains the following abilities....)

xxxxx (if the assigned character is defeated, this card is immediately given to your opponents squad)
SquelchDog
Posted: Thursday, March 17, 2011 8:54:08 AM
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The Celestial Warrior wrote:
People have a hard enough time remembering rules, as well as what characters do what.


Amen to that brother! I am so guilty of this. I went 90% of the way through a match forgetting my Yuuzhan Vong had Crab Armor saves. Cursing And halfway through a match forgetting Rieekan's Evade and Mobile Attack, plus Princess Leia, Hoth Commander's Bring'em back from the Dead Pool CE!! Double----> Cursing Cursing

Not saying these are bad idea's or anything like that. It's just this would be something else for Squelchy to forget during a match. Crying

But seriously, to me this seems more like something to add to Fool's SWM {CE} Guidelines. This kinda sounds more like an RPG thing to me.
engineer
Posted: Thursday, March 17, 2011 9:19:07 AM
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I don't think the game is currently costed or set up for something like this. Back in the day, MW:AoD was rebooted to allow the addition of cards.

Let's say a card gave out accurate shot or flight (two neat abilities). With these two cards (lets say 10 points each) an average shooter could be turned into Boba Fett. That just does not seem like a good idea.
Sithborg
Posted: Thursday, March 17, 2011 9:37:47 AM
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Also known as feats in Heroclix. Very tough for Design to work around such cards. I'm pretty sure figs like the Bacta Tank or more figs like the Spirits or the Rodian Smuggler? will be made, but never a card that does not correspond to a figure on the board.
billiv15
Posted: Thursday, March 17, 2011 9:41:43 AM
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Abilities do not ever cost "x". While the Battle Droid vs Mace example hits part of it, it's much worse than even that.

Grenades 10 on a Republic Commando with the RCTS, is very different than Grenades 10 on a Mando Gunslinger. Grenades 10 on the same RC without the RCTS would not cost the same as with him. Evade on a Rebel Luke would cost very little today. Evade on a similarly costed Vader, would be much much higher.

Costing is an artform, not a science. You can't number it generically.
juice man
Posted: Thursday, March 17, 2011 11:29:09 AM
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engineer wrote:
I don't think the game is currently costed or set up for something like this. Back in the day, MW:AoD was rebooted to allow the addition of cards.

Let's say a card gave out accurate shot or flight (two neat abilities). With these two cards (lets say 10 points each) an average shooter could be turned into Boba Fett. That just does not seem like a good idea.


A 53 pt Captian Rex Drool
A 64 pt Cad BaneDrool Drool Drool uh oh..... I......gotta.. go
dreadtech
Posted: Thursday, March 17, 2011 11:51:10 AM
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Not something I wish to see.
CerousMutor
Posted: Thursday, March 17, 2011 7:15:54 PM
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billiv15 wrote:
Abilities do not ever cost "x". While the Battle Droid vs Mace example hits part of it, it's much worse than even that.

Grenades 10 on a Republic Commando with the RCTS, is very different than Grenades 10 on a Mando Gunslinger. Grenades 10 on the same RC without the RCTS would not cost the same as with him. Evade on a Rebel Luke would cost very little today. Evade on a similarly costed Vader, would be much much higher.

Costing is an artform, not a science. You can't number it generically.


My point exactly. So if it were to be concidered, a blanket 20 points added to 'said' character.


Darth Vader Jedi Hunter
75
Hit Points: 140
Defense: 23
Attack: 16
Damage: 20
Special Abilities
Unique
Dark Armor (Whenever this character takes damage, he reduces the damage dealt by 10 with a save of 11. Attacks with lightsabers ignore this special ability.)
Jedi Hunter (+4 Attack and +10 Damage against enemies with Force ratings)
Melee Attack (Can attack only adjacent enemies)
Triple Attack (On his turn, this character can make 2 extra attacks instead of moving)

Force Powers
Force 2
Force Grip 1 (Force 1, replaces attacks: sight; 10 damage)
Force Renewal 1 (This character gets 1 Force point each time he activates)
Force Whirlwind (Force 2, replaces attacks: range 6; 20 damage to target and each character adjacent to that target; save 11)
Lightsaber Block (Force 1: When hit by a melee attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11)
Lightsaber Deflect (Force 1: When hit by a nonmelee attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11)
Lightsaber Sweep (Force 1, replaces attacks: Can attack each adjacent enemy once)


With X ability = Mobile Attack. That gives vader a sweet raise in the game but oh wait, at a +20 cost makes
95 for not a real advantage. hmmm hang on, lets try...

Lord Vader
71
Hit Points: 130
Defense: 21
Attack: 14
Damage: 20
Special Abilities
Unique
Dark Armor (Whenever this character takes damage, he reduces the damage dealt by 10 with a save of 11. Attacks with lightsabers ignore this special ability.)
Melee Attack (Can attack only adjacent enemies)
Twin Attack (Whenever this character attacks, he makes 1 extra attack against the same target)

Force Powers
Force 2

Force Renewal 1 (This character gets 1 Force point each time he activates)
Force Leap (Force 1: This turn, this character can move through enemy characters without provoking attacks of opportunity)
Lightsaber Assault (Force 1, replaces attacks: Make 2 attacks)
Lightsaber Sweep (Force 1, replaces attacks: Can attack each adjacent enemy once)
Master of the Force 2 (May spend Force points up to 2 times in a single turn)
Overwhelming Force (Force 1: This character's attacks cannot be prevented or redirected this turn)
Sith Rage (Force 1: +10 Damage on all attacks this turn)
Commander EffectFollowers within 6 squares gain Advantageous Attack.


Now that makes him 91
That I'd maybe go for.

Now I'm just putting this out there as a rough idea for people to actually think about as oppose to just saying no. Possabilities are endless...no is a dead end.

I'm not 100% on it but the idea alone hase got me thinking about minis again. Mine are boxed and all im doing is customs at the mo.
saber1
Posted: Friday, March 18, 2011 12:18:58 AM
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Conceptually this is a great idea. Unfortunately, adding this concept to a game this late is very problematic as others have mentioned. If any con develop a balanced and reasonably simple cost method I would be on board.
brennan
Posted: Friday, March 18, 2011 12:42:41 AM
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Here is an example of one of them:

Darth Revans Holocron

Unique,
Darth Revans Holocron: All characters within 6 sqs gain Sith Rage. At the begining of the skirmish choose one ally with a force rating. If that ally is defeated then this character is defeated or if the attacker was adjacent they may choose to add this character to their card at no extra pt cost if the make a save 11. On a failure they join your squad for the remainder of the skirmish. The character in posesion of this character gains the following abilities:

Intuition:

Tactician +8:

True Dark Lord: If there is only one other unique character in your squad with a Force Rating, this character gains +2-4at and +10 dm.

This character would cost a lot. Its a little wordy and rough but you get the picture. If you have a question about why I put what just ask. Also I dont know of any Jedi Holocrons so anybody got any info on that???

Here are a few more:

Belia Darzus Holocron;

Unique
Belia Darzus Holocron: All characters within 6 sqs gain poison +10. At the begining of the skirmish choose one ally with a force rating. If that ally is defeated then this character is defeated or if the attacker was adjacent they may choose to add this character to their card at no extra pt cost if the make a save 11. On a failure they join your squad for the remainder of the skirmish. The character in posesion of this character gains the following abilities:

(FA)Techno-beast creation: Force 2- replaces attacks. Target one savage ally within 6 sqs. That ally gains ranged attacks and damage reduction 10

(SA) Techno-Ballistic arming: replace attacks- an adjacent ally who had been targeted for Techno beast creation gains missiles 20.


Freedon Nadds Holocron

Unique,
Freedon Nadds Holocron: All characters within 6 sqs gain +2at and +2df. At the begining of the skirmish choose one ally with a force rating. If that ally is defeated then this character is defeated or if the attacker was adjacent they may choose to add this character to their card at no extra pt cost if the make a save 11. On a failure they join your squad for the remainder of the skirmish. The character in posesion of this character gains the following abilities:

Dark Force Spirit:

Sith Sorcery:

Sith Sorcery Mastery:F3 enemis within 6 sqs take 10 damage and are activated this round save 16. This continues at the begining of every one of their turns until the make the save.


Darth Andeddus Holocron

Unique,
Darth Andeddus Holocron: All characters within 6 sqs gain Avoid Defeat. At the begining of the skirmish choose one ally with a force rating. If that ally is defeated then this character is defeated or if the attacker was adjacent they may choose to add this character to their card at no extra pt cost if the make a save 11. On a failure they join your squad for the remainder of the skirmish. The character in posesion of this character gains the following abilities:


Eternal Essence: If this character would be defeated make a save 11. On a success, you may choose to replace the nearest ally with the same base size with this character at half hit points.

Transfer Essence:


Darth Banes Holocron: All characters within 6 sqs gain +1 Force at the begining of the round. At the begining of the skirmish choose one ally with a force rating. If that ally is defeated then this character is defeated or if the attacker was adjacent they may choose to add this character to their card at no extra pt cost if the make a save 11. On a failure they join your squad for the remainder of the skirmish. The character in posesion of this character gains the following abilities:

Dark Master:

Any single lightsaber stlye: ( must be determined when the character is determined)

Overwhelming Force:

Dark Abyss:Replaces Turn; Force 5: All enemies within 6 sqs take 40 dm and lose one force point. This character gains +10 hp and 1fp for every affected character.


Phew that was long! the point cost would vary largely. Ive done a couple trial runs with friends and its really fun. At tournaments though you would have to have the character choosing/ ability choosing submitted and locked.
The Celestial Warrior
Posted: Friday, March 18, 2011 2:33:30 AM
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These are really no different than glorified Force Spirits (thus each of the holocrons should also include "counts as X character"). At least with Force Spirits though it's not as easy to switch the target, as there is a physical representation of each one on the board, it's pretty obvious which one he is within 4 of.

Why add such a mechanic into the game when there is a minor abstraction of it already in place?

BTW, as Force Spirits the lowest cost of any of these is still in the mid 30's, which is pretty unreasonable. As a non-figure (thus losing an activation) I'd maybe drop 1-5 points off that depenind of faction.
Mandelmauler
Posted: Friday, March 18, 2011 3:10:39 AM
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Thank you all for the polite discussion on a "controversial" topic.
billiv15
Posted: Friday, March 18, 2011 3:50:28 AM
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It's a good idea to consider - I didn't intend to seem dismissive of it. But rather I'd say it's just too tough to add it to the game as it's constructed. 30 points is probably a good estimate of a realistic cost. But rather than adding unplaced cards, I'd keep the same ideas and utilize actual characters on the board to do the same thing - which the game already does. For example, Force Spirits, Czerka, CEs, Rodian Trader, and the coming Zann Consortium Underboss :).

I do like the idea of adding a holocron, but I would go the route of making it an actual character with emplacement that would potentially benefit both squads within its range, and have hps and defense to allow it to be destroyed - could even have consequences for its destruction like "killing Revan's Holocron grants Dark Force Spirit for the remainder of the game". I see it as too complicated for regular competitive skirmish play, but an absolutely great idea for custom play. I don't think it's a likely possibility for regular V-sets, but its something I'd consider for one of our side projects in the future. Great idea.
billiv15
Posted: Friday, March 18, 2011 4:02:31 AM
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It's a good idea to consider - I didn't intend to seem dismissive of it. But rather I'd say it's just too tough to add it to the game as it's constructed. 30 points is probably a good estimate of a realistic cost. But rather than adding unplaced cards, I'd keep the same ideas and utilize actual characters on the board to do the same thing - which the game already does. For example, Force Spirits, Czerka, CEs, Rodian Trader, and the coming Zann Consortium Underboss :).

I do like the idea of adding a holocron, but I would go the route of making it an actual character with emplacement that would potentially benefit both squads within its range, and have hps and defense to allow it to be destroyed - could even have consequences for its destruction like "killing Revan's Holocron grants Dark Force Spirit for the remainder of the game". I see it as too complicated for regular competitive skirmish play, but an absolutely great idea for custom play. I don't think it's a likely possibility for regular V-sets, but its something I'd consider for one of our side projects in the future. Great idea.
General_Grievous
Posted: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 5:07:18 AM
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Agreed, that is what led me to go off the theme of the rodian trader and lord tyrannus and create these guys as ideas:
Bith Bartender
SA Juma Juice (replaces attacks, adjacent living allied character gains +10 damage, damage reduction 10 and speed 4 until the end of its next turn)

Rodian Spice Dealer
SA Deathsticks (replaces attacks, adjacent allied character gains twin attack and charging assault until the end of the round, at the end of the round that character takes 20 damage, save 11 for half damage)

Twilek Stimpack Dealer
Cost 25
SA strength Stimpack( replaces turn, adjacent living allied character gains might swing and momentum) for the rest of the skirmish
Dexterity Stimpack (replaces turn, adjacent living allied character gains speed 8 and +2 defense for the remainder of the skirmish)
Endurance Stimpack (replaces turn, adjacent living allied character gains damage reduction  10 and avoid defeat for the rest of the skirmish)

Or for simplicity's sake just turn it into: 
Stimpack (replaces turn, adjacent living allied character gains +4 defense, momentum and avoid defeat for the rest of the skirmish)

Human Teras kasi master
CE at the end of this characters turn, choose one ally with melee attack within line of sight, that ally gains close quarters fighting, parry, and evade until the end of the round
OR
allied characters with melee attack gain cqc fighting 

Human Trader
Night Vision supplies (replaces turn, adjacent ally gains accurate shot for the rest of the skirmish)
Jetpack Supplies (replaces turn, adjacent ally gains flight for the rest of the skirmish)

Twilek Trader
Cloaking supplies (replaces turn, adjacent ally gains stealth for the rest of the skirmish)
Poison supplies (replaces turn, adjacent ally gains poison 10 for the rest of the skirmish)

Czerka heavy Arms Dealer
Heavy Repeater upgrade (allies without melee attack that deal 30 damage gain twin attack and heavy weapon; while 
within six squares of this character)
Mounted Weapon upgrade (allies without melee attack that deal 40 damage gain splash 20; while 
within six squares of this character)

Corsec riot control officer
Vibrostaff upgrade (replaces turn, adjacent ally with melee attack gains vibrostaff for the rest of the skirmish)
Blaster rifle upgrade (20 damage nonmelee gain jolt while within 6 squares)

Yes there is alot of potentially powerful abilities there but make the guys anywhere from 10 to 20 and they should be good for balance. And helping Luke gm and those. Other big guys out
saber1
Posted: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 11:05:01 AM
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GG has some good ideas above.

As for "stack" cards, I have an idea. Something more feasable might be lightsaber styles.

Lightsaber Training, Ataru Style
Cost: 8
HP: -
DEF: -
ATK: -
DAM: -

Special Abilities
Ataru Style Training (Does not count as a character. At the start of the skirmish chose one character in your squad that counts as Yoda, Qui-Gon Jin, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Aayla Secura, Mara Jade or Shaak Ti and does not have a Lightsaber Style. That character gains Ataru Style for the rest of the skirmish.)



Lightsaber Training, Djem So Style
Cost: 6
HP: -
DEF: -
ATK: -
DAM: -

Special Abilities
Djem So Style Training (Does not count as a character. At the start of the skirmish chose one character in your squad that counts as Darth Bane, Anakin Skywalker, Luke Skywalker, Darth Vader, Vader's Apprentice or Kyle Katarn does not have a Lightsaber Style. That character gains Djem So Style for the rest of the skirmish.)


Each style would specify known users and obviously be priced accordingly. This would add a fun customizable facet to the game that should be relatively easy to develop and keep balanced. Thoughts?
SquelchDog
Posted: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 3:03:30 AM
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Yes the Holocron idea sounds good to me. Darth Chaos made two of those for his gamers down at his store in Florida. One Sith and one Jedi. ThumpUp If you visit his store and play some mini's they give out custom made stuff for free. ThumbsUp I like that better than a non-mini based type deal. Just my two cents.

Nice custom SA's General_Grievous. Lots of decent stuff in there dude. ThumpUp
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