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CerousMutor wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:adamb0nd wrote:
Could always leave out the Rival:Lobot, which is just an obvious nerf, and go with a more elegant wording like:
"Contractual Agreement" or "Highest Bidder": Other character's in your squad lose Reinforcements.
or even if you don't want to be so restrictive:
Price gauge: Characters brought in through other character's Reinforcements cost double
Really like these ideas There is still a core problem of - in order to make people play a piece over Lobot, it has to be better than Lobot. Do we really want to make pieces better than Lobot? And if we do, won't it just be the new auto-include? Lots of quandaries. No perfect solution. Well the only way is to create a character that offers the same but with a difference. So its a choice, not a replacement. Easier said than done.
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CerousMutor wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:adamb0nd wrote:
Could always leave out the Rival:Lobot, which is just an obvious nerf, and go with a more elegant wording like:
"Contractual Agreement" or "Highest Bidder": Other character's in your squad lose Reinforcements.
or even if you don't want to be so restrictive:
Price gauge: Characters brought in through other character's Reinforcements cost double
Really like these ideas There is still a core problem of - in order to make people play a piece over Lobot, it has to be better than Lobot. Do we really want to make pieces better than Lobot? And if we do, won't it just be the new auto-include? Lots of quandaries. No perfect solution. Well the only way is to create a character that offers the same but with a difference. So its a choice, not a replacement. An idea I had for an equivalent piece for factional purity that brings in and "conscripts" the reinforcements but rivals other reinforcement pieces. Rebel example could be Kol Serra (PSP Batlefront). He brings in Fringe, puts them to work in Rebels, and should distrust others for game play: Kol Serra 37 pts Fringe Reserves Rebel Conscription (Counts Fringe pieces as Rebel Troopers) Independent contractor (This squad cannot contain other characters with Reinforcements/Reserves) CE Rebel troopers gain X. This is but an example. Each faction probably has someone similar (Another Dooku?) that could build upon the idea.
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Deathwielded wrote:
Question, for magnetic Sabotage does it activate when this character moves adjacent or just when you opponent moves adjacent? I would so rather this guy over the LIN.
Magnetic Sabotage happens whenever the piece becomes adjacent to the vehicle, strafer or mounted weapon, whether its through its own movement or the opponents piece movement. Its automatic, there is no choice, it just happens. This is strong but it takes some of the control away, someone could do a suicide strafe to take out all the buzz droids for instance. However, it also means you can run 12 to magnatically sabotage an opponents piece but it costs you the figure (and possibly 5-6 points). Choice between LIN and buzz droid is competitive. The Lin droid is tougher, lasts longer and has a larger area to protect strafe vulnerable pieces. Each space of movement over the LIN forces a mine save so Its a more effective roadblock. The Buzz droids malfunctioning aspect has the potential to wreck a lancer in a few turns, but its unlikely unless you can get 2 of them on the piece and you're still trading 2 figures. I'd guess the most likely combo is one of each when faced with Durge or lancer or luke/leia.
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TimmerB123 wrote:CerousMutor wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:adamb0nd wrote:
Could always leave out the Rival:Lobot, which is just an obvious nerf, and go with a more elegant wording like:
"Contractual Agreement" or "Highest Bidder": Other character's in your squad lose Reinforcements.
or even if you don't want to be so restrictive:
Price gauge: Characters brought in through other character's Reinforcements cost double
Really like these ideas There is still a core problem of - in order to make people play a piece over Lobot, it has to be better than Lobot. Do we really want to make pieces better than Lobot? And if we do, won't it just be the new auto-include? Lots of quandaries. No perfect solution. Well the only way is to create a character that offers the same but with a difference. So its a choice, not a replacement. Easier said than done. Yeah, its really hard because of how good a cost Lobot is. If you take the 20 points of reinforcements out of his cost, he's a 7 point override piece. There isn't an override piece that is that cheap and override is AWESOME. So you either increase the pieces cost and add lots of good stuff or you make him cheaper and add very little while losing override. Most people would probably just take lobot in most cases because his build is just so blasted good. I can't imagine making a piece that does anything other than compete for him and in that case you are just making sure that people have reinforcement. Why not just leave lobot as the almost auto include piece where people then have to think about how to fit him in rather than giving them more options for reinforcement that makes it much easier to ensure you have it? The basic fact is that Lobot isn't going anywhere, replacing him just power creeps, competing with his design will just make reinforcements even more of a likelihood and most things that try and dissuade him generally get played WITH him (see bribery and other reinforcement pieces). Its another WotC piece that i truly believe they didn't understand how good a piece they were making. Really, lobot should have been at least 30-2 points. You pay +10 points for tayloring (individually 5 points or so) and override (worth at least 7 points).
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True. It would be hard, but making them offer something to their faction that they don't have could rival what he brings. For example, up until commander skywalker, rebels really lacked CE-extention support. So, maybe not the best example, but up until this set, a piece in the same price range as lobot who had relay orders instead of override would have been be preferable.
I suppose all that does is further emphasize your point about auto inclusion. If LOBOT isn't auto included, it will be because there is a better option. I do feel like we play in the 177+lobot point game, and changing it at this point probably ins't possible without some sort of squad building shinanagan, ala MTG, where older sets are phased out when newer are added in. Pieces like Marn and Wuher do address the issue in some ways, but Marn also adds to the problem, and Wuher only goes so far as to trump mouse dumps at a cost of a lost potential 4 activations to your own team.
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Oooh, what about a more expensive piece that works well generically for its faction (synergies well, but not overly specific so that it works in various builds), and having a reinforcement that can bring in both fringe AND it's home factions pieces? Just an idea. In some cases lobot is cheaper and has override, in other, the increased versatility of what you bring it would be more enticing. Just a random thought that may not actually fix anything... Or another route would be to just have a way to get rid of reinforcements all together... something like Gillion's ability but it targets your enemy: At the start of the skirmish, chose an enemy with reinforcements. Your opponent must exchange that piece with one of equal or lesser value... I dunno, just throwing out some ideas. I suppose this could all be migrated to its own thread (but the conversation will die off as soon as y'all show me some sweet new v-set 7 pieces to talk about  )
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An idea to possibly nerf Lobot some...
Lando of Cloud City
Under Orders - Replaces attacks: a character whose name contains Lobot takes an immediate turn under your control, which does not count as one of your 2 activations this phase, even if it has already been activated this round.
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FlyingArrow wrote:An idea to possibly nerf Lobot some...
Lando of Cloud City
Under Orders - Replaces attacks: a character whose name contains Lobot takes an immediate turn under your control, which does not count as one of your 2 activations this phase, even if it has already been activated this round. That's pretty clever. But wouldn't we end up in a situation where the only way people would only play him if he could be brought in with lobot, and then we would just end up with lobot+lando vs lobot+lando squads?
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CerousMutor wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:CerousMutor wrote:Deathwielded wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:Deathwielded wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:CerousMutor wrote:
I always thought we needed a . . . mini Similar to Exar in that he sacrifices his squad. I know You have the nom bombs but a twist on it could be nice.
So you mean that a Vong character would actually sacrifice his allies to gain benefits for his squad? Maybe something like the Muun Tactics Broker, but called Sacrifice? Or perhaps "(insert YV God here) sacrifice". That would be sweet. Don't know if it's exactly right for Yu'shaa. He was a fake profit, only concerned with himself. I think this sacrifice ability might be perfect for some kind of high priest. Hmmmm Yeah especially since the Yuuzhan Vong now have so many low costing pieces, you wouldn't have much of a problem finding good sacrifices. I would need to be worth it. Maybe something like: Yun-Yammka Sacrifice usable only during this characters turn, you may choose 1 other character in your squad. Remove that character from play; that character is defeated. All Yuuzhan Vong allies get +10 damage for the rest of the round. Except you couldn't sacrifice shamed ones, that would insult the gods. Also don't know if Vong need another damage boost - I think attack boost would be better. Also - it would work better if they didn't have to activate to use it. So more like the MTB, only optional. Yun-Yammka Sacrifice After initiative is determined, you may choose 1 other Yuuzhan Vong ally without the Shamed One ability. Remove that character from play; that character is defeated. All Yuuzhan Vong allies get +4 attack for the rest of the round. I really do like this. What would it be for the other gods? What would Yun-Harla's be (The trickster goddess)? I like the attack boost better!  how about: Yun-Yuuzhan Sacrifice (creator) or Yun-Ne'Shel sacrifice (modeler, worshiped by the shapers) After initiative is determined, you may choose 1 other Yuuzhan Vong ally without the Shamed One ability. Remove that character from play; that character is defeated. All Yuuzhan Vong allies within 6 squares from the chosen character may remove upto 20 damage.(some vong healing) Yun-Harla Sacrifice After initiative is determined, you may choose 1 other Yuuzhan Vong ally without the Shamed One ability. Remove that character from play; that character is defeated. 2 allies who are the same size and within 6 squares from the chosen character may switch positions. (Vong Swap) I have to say I like the Yun-Yammka Sacrifice the best. BTW "According to their religion, life was suffering, and death was the ultimate release from that suffering. Thus, the Yuuzhan Vong were resigned, and willingly went to their deaths. In addition, the priests claimed that they did not ask of others what they themselves did not accomplish, meaning that they equally sacrificed their own numbers as well as "infidels". " -Wookieepedia So I wouldn't limit the sacrifices to only Vong characters. For game purposes it would be easier to have Sacrifice "any living any", thematic purpose I think it you'd be better "non-Yuuzhan Vong living ally" Disagree on that point. Most Yuuzhan Vong believed that the infidels were heretics, and must die. That is not the same as a sacrifice. A sacrifice must be something the gods find pleasing. So sacrificing an infidel would anger the gods. Infidels must be killed, pure Yuuzhan Vong were the only acceptable sacrifices. I must disagree with your disagreement. The Yuuzhan Vong viewed each death of an infidel as a sacrifice to thier God Yun-Yammka. The held ceremonies where there were ritual sacrifices, but every death was pleasing, except that of the shamed ones. Then you could have 2 pt mouse droids as a sacrifice. Don't think the gods would like that. It's a gameplay issue as well. Forcing you to build for it and kill a minimum if a 4 pt piece (worker) makes it harder to do, which is best for gameplay
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TimmerB123 wrote:Have a look at Eminence Harrar when you get your cards. ;) Or just look at page 1 right now. He's pretty cool. I like the Jedi Temple Guard too - a swarm of them with Cin Drallig could be, at the least, a decent casual squad. With 60 hp and Parry, they could be tough to chew through. With the Lobot issue, I kind of do agree. Czerka Shield Tech from the last set was a significant new Lobot option too. I do really like Marn and Tyber Zann - a bit more stuff like that would be great.
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TimmerB123 wrote:CerousMutor wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:CerousMutor wrote:Deathwielded wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:Deathwielded wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:CerousMutor wrote:
I always thought we needed a . . . mini Similar to Exar in that he sacrifices his squad. I know You have the nom bombs but a twist on it could be nice.
So you mean that a Vong character would actually sacrifice his allies to gain benefits for his squad? Maybe something like the Muun Tactics Broker, but called Sacrifice? Or perhaps "(insert YV God here) sacrifice". That would be sweet. Don't know if it's exactly right for Yu'shaa. He was a fake profit, only concerned with himself. I think this sacrifice ability might be perfect for some kind of high priest. Hmmmm Yeah especially since the Yuuzhan Vong now have so many low costing pieces, you wouldn't have much of a problem finding good sacrifices. I would need to be worth it. Maybe something like: Yun-Yammka Sacrifice usable only during this characters turn, you may choose 1 other character in your squad. Remove that character from play; that character is defeated. All Yuuzhan Vong allies get +10 damage for the rest of the round. Except you couldn't sacrifice shamed ones, that would insult the gods. Also don't know if Vong need another damage boost - I think attack boost would be better. Also - it would work better if they didn't have to activate to use it. So more like the MTB, only optional. Yun-Yammka Sacrifice After initiative is determined, you may choose 1 other Yuuzhan Vong ally without the Shamed One ability. Remove that character from play; that character is defeated. All Yuuzhan Vong allies get +4 attack for the rest of the round. I really do like this. What would it be for the other gods? What would Yun-Harla's be (The trickster goddess)? I like the attack boost better! how about: Yun-Yuuzhan Sacrifice (creator) or Yun-Ne'Shel sacrifice (modeler, worshiped by the shapers) After initiative is determined, you may choose 1 other Yuuzhan Vong ally without the Shamed One ability. Remove that character from play; that character is defeated. All Yuuzhan Vong allies within 6 squares from the chosen character may remove upto 20 damage.(some vong healing) Yun-Harla Sacrifice After initiative is determined, you may choose 1 other Yuuzhan Vong ally without the Shamed One ability. Remove that character from play; that character is defeated. 2 allies who are the same size and within 6 squares from the chosen character may switch positions. (Vong Swap) I have to say I like the Yun-Yammka Sacrifice the best. BTW "According to their religion, life was suffering, and death was the ultimate release from that suffering. Thus, the Yuuzhan Vong were resigned, and willingly went to their deaths. In addition, the priests claimed that they did not ask of others what they themselves did not accomplish, meaning that they equally sacrificed their own numbers as well as "infidels". " -Wookieepedia So I wouldn't limit the sacrifices to only Vong characters. For game purposes it would be easier to have Sacrifice "any living ally", thematic purpose I think it you'd be better "non-Yuuzhan Vong living ally" Disagree on that point. Most Yuuzhan Vong believed that the infidels were heretics, and must die. That is not the same as a sacrifice. A sacrifice must be something the gods find pleasing. So sacrificing an infidel would anger the gods. Infidels must be killed, pure Yuuzhan Vong were the only acceptable sacrifices. I must disagree with your disagreement. The Yuuzhan Vong viewed each death of an infidel as a sacrifice to thier God Yun-Yammka. The held ceremonies where there were ritual sacrifices, but every death was pleasing, except that of the shamed ones. Then you could have 2 pt mouse droids as a sacrifice. Don't think the gods would like that. It's a gameplay issue as well. Forcing you to build for it and kill a minimum if a 4 pt piece (worker) makes it harder to do, which is best for gameplay Agreed, but a mouse droids is non-living, I put "living ally". For game purposes it probably would end up as sacrificing Allied Vong, but there are plenty of living fringe infidels they could pick off first.
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CerousMutor wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:CerousMutor wrote:Deathwielded wrote:
BTW "According to their religion, life was suffering, and death was the ultimate release from that suffering. Thus, the Yuuzhan Vong were resigned, and willingly went to their deaths. In addition, the priests claimed that they did not ask of others what they themselves did not accomplish, meaning that they equally sacrificed their own numbers as well as "infidels". " -Wookieepedia So I wouldn't limit the sacrifices to only Vong characters.
For game purposes it would be easier to have Sacrifice "any living any", thematic purpose I think it you'd be better "non-Yuuzhan Vong living ally" Disagree on that point. Most Yuuzhan Vong believed that the infidels were heretics, and must die. That is not the same as a sacrifice. A sacrifice must be something the gods find pleasing. So sacrificing an infidel would anger the gods. Infidels must be killed, pure Yuuzhan Vong were the only acceptable sacrifices. I must disagree with your disagreement. The Yuuzhan Vong viewed each death of an infidel as a sacrifice to thier God Yun-Yammka. The held ceremonies where there were ritual sacrifices, but every death was pleasing, except that of the shamed ones. Then you could have 2 pt mouse droids as a sacrifice. Don't think the gods would like that. It's a gameplay issue as well. Forcing you to build for it and kill a minimum if a 4 pt piece (worker) makes it harder to do, which is best for gameplay[/quote] I would change the wording so that you must sacrifice a Living ally, not just some droid. (how much more offensive to the gods can you get? I would even argue it would be more offensive to sacrifice a droid then a shamed one) The Yuuzhan Vong absolutely sacrificed non Vong characters. Didn't the Vong want to sacrifice the Jedi? And didn't they sacrifice many captured aliens before NJO if they didn't become a familiar? (like Vergere did?) Maybe some more research is in order to discover what the Vong sacrifices dictate. Cuz maybe we are just remembering a certain Vong's POV.
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Jedi Temple guard is fun, but lacks the attack bonus to go against other saber wielders. I suppose you could use jedi trainer on them, but it feels wasted.
The vong are sort of alien to me (waka waka), but the I assume the ability to target droids will help them no longer auto loss vs seps.
Note: Derp, missed the squad ability. Looks fun :)
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fingersandteeth wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:CerousMutor wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:adamb0nd wrote:
Could always leave out the Rival:Lobot, which is just an obvious nerf, and go with a more elegant wording like:
"Contractual Agreement" or "Highest Bidder": Other character's in your squad lose Reinforcements.
or even if you don't want to be so restrictive:
Price gauge: Characters brought in through other character's Reinforcements cost double
Really like these ideas There is still a core problem of - in order to make people play a piece over Lobot, it has to be better than Lobot. Do we really want to make pieces better than Lobot? And if we do, won't it just be the new auto-include? Lots of quandaries. No perfect solution. Well the only way is to create a character that offers the same but with a difference. So its a choice, not a replacement. Easier said than done. Yeah, its really hard because of how good a cost Lobot is. If you take the 20 points of reinforcements out of his cost, he's a 7 point override piece. There isn't an override piece that is that cheap and override is AWESOME. So you either increase the pieces cost and add lots of good stuff or you make him cheaper and add very little while losing override. Most people would probably just take lobot in most cases because his build is just so blasted good. I can't imagine making a piece that does anything other than compete for him and in that case you are just making sure that people have reinforcement. Why not just leave lobot as the almost auto include piece where people then have to think about how to fit him in rather than giving them more options for reinforcement that makes it much easier to ensure you have it? The basic fact is that Lobot isn't going anywhere, replacing him just power creeps, competing with his design will just make reinforcements even more of a likelihood and most things that try and dissuade him generally get played WITH him (see bribery and other reinforcement pieces). Its another WotC piece that i truly believe they didn't understand how good a piece they were making. Really, lobot should have been at least 30-2 points. You pay +10 points for tayloring (individually 5 points or so) and override (worth at least 7 points). Damage reduction? Aim to have a piece that is undercosted to the same ilk as Lobot, BUT will not break the game?
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fingersandteeth wrote:
Its another WotC piece that i truly believe they didn't understand how good a piece they were making.
Really, lobot should have been at least 30-2 points.
You pay +10 points for tayloring (individually 5 points or so) and override (worth at least 7 points).
To be fair the game was played at 100pts then. He's not that great in 100. Also options were slimmer back then. Of course he keeps getting better the higher the point level and the more reinforcement options.
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Deathwielded wrote:CerousMutor wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:Deathwielded wrote:
BTW "According to their religion, life was suffering, and death was the ultimate release from that suffering. Thus, the Yuuzhan Vong were resigned, and willingly went to their deaths. In addition, the priests claimed that they did not ask of others what they themselves did not accomplish, meaning that they equally sacrificed their own numbers as well as "infidels". " -Wookieepedia So I wouldn't limit the sacrifices to only Vong characters.
For game purposes it would be easier to have Sacrifice "any living any", thematic purpose I think it you'd be better "non-Yuuzhan Vong living ally" Disagree on that point. Most Yuuzhan Vong believed that the infidels were heretics, and must die. That is not the same as a sacrifice. A sacrifice must be something the gods find pleasing. So sacrificing an infidel would anger the gods. Infidels must be killed, pure Yuuzhan Vong were the only acceptable sacrifices. I must disagree with your disagreement. The Yuuzhan Vong viewed each death of an infidel as a sacrifice to thier God Yun-Yammka. The held ceremonies where there were ritual sacrifices, but every death was pleasing, except that of the shamed ones. Then you could have 2 pt mouse droids as a sacrifice. Don't think the gods would like that. It's a gameplay issue as well. Forcing you to build for it and kill a minimum if a 4 pt piece (worker) makes it harder to do, which is best for gameplay[/quote] I would change the wording so that you must sacrifice a Living ally, not just some droid. (how much more offensive to the gods can you get? I would even argue it would be more offensive to sacrifice a droid then a shamed one) The Yuuzhan Vong absolutely sacrificed non Vong characters. Didn't the Vong want to sacrifice the Jedi? And didn't they sacrifice many captured aliens before NJO if they didn't become a familiar? (like Vergere did?) Maybe some more research is in order to discover what the Vong sacrifices dictate. Cuz maybe we are just remembering a certain Vong's POV.[/quote] Aww you broke the thread! I secretly wanted it to turn into a mamoth windowinwindowinwindowinwindo...
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Jedi Temple Guard Perfect ally for Cin! GMA with parry is great, they just need some more ranged defenses. (now were to get that?  ) I would definitely include Qui-gon Trainer to get them enough attack. I love how you guy really out done yourselves with including less used SA and force powers in this set, as well as all these large and huge characters!  That OMG are actually playable! We haven't seen that since... Well okay we just got some last time, but I'm glad to see bigger characters make a comeback Eminence Harrar LOL  here we are working on making Sacrifice abilities and you guys already made one.  Other than that, he really isn't my cup of tea.
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Something went wrong when I tried to trim down all the quoting, but it's all fixed CerousMutor.
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Deathwielded wrote:Jedi Temple Guard Perfect ally for Cin! GMA with parry is great, they just need some more ranged defenses. (now were to get that? ) I would definitely include Qui-gon Trainer to get them enough attack. Droid = Not subject to CE 
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adamb0nd wrote:Deathwielded wrote:Jedi Temple Guard Perfect ally for Cin! GMA with parry is great, they just need some more ranged defenses. (now were to get that? ) I would definitely include Qui-gon Trainer to get them enough attack. Droid = Not subject to CE But it's not a droid, just it's proxy is. Reading comprehension fail 
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