Well, that just isn't true. There are plenty of reasons to do it this way. And the vast majority of the community agrees with it. Just because you may or may not buy any of the reasons we've given repeatedly over the last year, doesn't mean there are "zero". I made this point on the SHNN last night.

At Gencon, we had a returning player who showed up to play an event at Gencon (we may have had more than this, but I know of this one for certain). He had no idea about the V-sets, had no idea about anything we've done in the past year, brought an older squad from when he played more regularly, and low and behold, he was able to play it in the event exactly as he remembered. Sure, he had to deal with new pieces that he'd never seen before (DotF stuff), but he was still able to participate with his squad working the way it always has. This is by far not the only reason to do it, but it's far and away the most important reason. The second most important reason is for simplicity. You may or may not agree, I don't particularly care about an individual person's view on it, but the majority wants the game to be simple. We agreed as a community to stick to precedent as much as possible with new pieces. Finally, a third reason. The moment we change something, we get people like you crying for everything under the sun to change, and people get mad and angry when their favored change isn't taken up. It's a terrible process. If you want to experience it yourself, try designing a piece with 10 other people on this board. See how long it takes. See how much people disagree and argue about the most inane part of flavor. In particular, you must make Gwek, Sithborg, Lord Ball and Dreadtech happy. Give that a try. When you realize how much of a nightmare that experience ends up being, then you will begin to understand why changing rules via the community is such a bad bad idea.

Further, this point is particularly over. It was agreed upon last year, and no matter what you say about it now, rule changes will follow the WotC example. We will only make changes to the base rules when it prevents a broken mechanic. We will not chance things because of flavor, popularity, or whim. We will be ultra conservative in any changes. In fact, I'd say the likelihood of anything from WotC's part of the game changing at this point is nil. Nothing is broken that we as a community have identified in over a year, odds are, nothing will emerge from it in the future. This was decided by the community over a year ago, you are way to late to argue for changing it now. I don't care if you agree or not, this was the decision and you must accept it. Any arguments based on your disagreement with that policy, will be ignored, because they aren't relevant to the game as it is.

I'm sorry you feel that way. But you must understand, the rules are the rules. They are the bedrock of the entire game, comptetitive or otherwise. You might not realize it, but rules changes have an adverse effect on a game. SWCCG took a HUGE hit when they went and streamlined the rules, changing the way somethings had worked for years. Also, when the completely redid all of their V cards. I'm getting into Heroclix, and I have a 2010 and 2011 rulebook, with some rather significant changes from the two, especially from when I first started collecting way back when it first came out. I'm not overly excited to get into tournaments if I keep having to relearn the rules everytime. And new players aren't an issue, it's the returning players. We have to keep the bedrock of the game the same, so it is easy for those players to come back.

And I'm sorry, but this community could never agree on anything. We've probably alienated 1 or 2 groups because certain personalities could not get along. I don't miss those, because they were just troublemakers. And we are still trying to quench the occaisonal fire. Anyone who thinks the community could come to an agreement on anything is sadly mistaken.

And I apologize if I come off as arrogant, but most players do not understand the rules enough to make an informed decision about rulings. This game uses a LOT of precendents. Going all the way back to Rebel Storm. Changing one thing, in theory, could result in a lot of other changes in rulings. Changing the rulings to want people want, vs what is established by logic, is not going to end well. We have one example of ruling by intention, and that is a pain in the ass to everyone: Bombad Gungan. Not going to go down that road for every little thing because of "this is how it works in the movies/games/comics/novels".

First to sithborg, good post and I understand what you are saying, but what I do not understand is if people like Bill who says these are the rules we are all working with, and some even take it as far to say I know that this does not make sense, but oh well, they are the rules, that is simply retarded. I mean honestly let us leave lightsaber alone because to change that would cause to big of a change in the game really? come on everyone knows that that should be a melee attack, and you know, but oh well Wizards says that it isn't so let us listen to them? WHY? they are no longer a part of this so who cares what they established. Oh it would be to hard to relearn the rules? LOL, do not give me that any player that says it would be to hard to change lightsaber to a melee attack is being crazy, would it change how that character works of course it would, may it change it to where Mara Jade, Jedi may seem less powerful because she can be djem so, or riposted, of course but that is what absolutely makes sense. I understand that you guys are trying to keep it simple and everything, but to just tell everyone that they are wrong and that you are not going to listen to them because "you have had this discussion" is pathetic. Sithborg, you have already said that this has caused alienation between groups of players, and if continuing the game is what everyone wants I think that it would do a lot of good for people to actually hear what people have to say. This includes new people that may have just started the game, it does no good to just tell them, these are the rules like them, or shut up about them, or just don't play. It seems to me that the designers and playtesters only care about what the established players want, and I guess that is fine, but do not pretend to act like you are trying to draw new people in when that is clearly not the case. And for anyone that answers this by saying we are trying to just keep the people we have now, we know where that will lead to a dead game, that sits on the shelves of its one time players and grows dust.

I like Sith Alchemy, but it's one of those SA's that should not be over used. Similar to things like self destructed, fine one the odd character but should not be on many characters. I thought that Celeste was one of the better character in the set and it did suit her character, but do think it should be kept to unique characters and only the odd 1 or 2 at that.

I do not mean to say that every little thing should be changed. I am merely advocating a more open environment to discuss the changes. I do not think that because one or two, or however many people think that something should be changed, that it should be changed, but what I do think is that people should at least take into consideration what people have to say, instead of saying, we already discussed this. I for one, have never discussed this until now, because I am relatively new to the game, and wanted to better understand everything before I opened my mouth. If a majority of people think mace is to powerful, then he probably is, regardless of what occurred during play testing. I mean honestly of course if Mace windu rolls, like crap, he blows, but that is true of every character in the game, I believe the problem most people have with Mace is that there is NO LIMIT to his capabilities. If he rolls good, you lose as simple as that, I don't care how good your squad is. I have seen Mace used a lot, against alot of different things, such as stealth in blue, almost the same squad as the gencon championship squad, droids, the new maul, zannah, and so on. and guess what he has utterly destroyed them all. And the people playing these other squads were good players. Let's face it he has way to much support to not be a considerable threat to any squad. I mean I hear all this talk about how shooters tear him up, that is a JOKE! Put him with yoda on kybuck, r2-d2 and panaka, and I have yet to see anyone, or any squad be able to kill him before he destroys you. It makes no difference what shooters you have if they can not declare an attack if he has already swapped in and destroyed you. Not to mention he has a 22 defense, a 26 in cover, which is pretty dang good defense by itself.

Anyways, look I am not trying to be a trouble maker or anything like that, Bill, Sithborg, and everyone else I really do appreciate everything you guys do, I know it must be hard and all, but please listen what new people have to say, and try to take into consideration what people playing these new characters think. Just to put this in there, I have actually taken part in some of the playtesting going on, and I know that no characters/abilities are just thrown out there, I just think we should also listen to what people say after these characters are released, considering this game dies without the people that play it.

In response to Death_Baines post about swap, you can argue the same for Lord Vader B&B. In fact, Vader can deal more damage consistently with Thrawn; to be exact 160 damage no crits on the move. Or, conversely 80 damage on the move that cant be blocked or BD'd. He only lacks -1 def compared to Windu, and considering Thrawn has MT he will definitely be able to swap back the very next round. And he has Dark Armor. And a pretty good CE. All for only 6 more points.

Each factions have their own strengths and weaknesses. Considering Republic does not have any tempo control, you better be sure to have a bunch of acts to swap him in at the end of the round and then back at the beginning of the next round or else he will get beaten up after he does his thing. Imperials on the other hand do have tempo control; which makes LV a much bigger threat. And LV B&B isnt quite dominating the current meta if I am not mistaken. Sure; you can pair up Mace with doombot; Yobuck; Mas; and Pancakes but thats already 156 points right there; not even enough room for Gen Skyguy who would boost Mace's average damage rate up a few notches. And shooters is not his only problem. What if you are playing an all droid squad (which is top tier)? He would lose some of his best potential. What if you play a mouse droid swarm squad? (which is still pretty common)
Youll be wasting a bunch of possible crits on 10 HP 3 (or 2)-pt critters. I do agree with you that Mace is slightly undercosted; but the desgners made it that way to make him playable. Are any of the other Windus used today? The only one that came near was Gen. Windu; and his only real playing value was in the CE. Once Obi JG he pretty much became obsolete. His only current use is for proxy (Epic mace woot); scenarios; and dynamic duo with Dash Smuggler.

Case in point: Im pretty sure the designers know what they are doing. They may have a few leaks here and there; but considering that they have the other designers and the PTs to help them out; the chance of a "broken" flaw is very small. Yes; they may not want the community to give their input; but thats what PTs are for--selected members of the community who are a) reliable and b) objective. Random n00bs who recently joined the game (no offense); fanboys; and just plain old trollers are not really the best option to gather surveys from. If you want your voice to be heard; show yourself to be reliable and objective as a member and then when V-Set 3 (or any of the later ones) is drawing close you can politely ask a designer to playtest. I was a playtester for Sith who gave some opinions on the pieces. A few changes occured between the time I received the rough stats and the final card text. Whether they did it b/c of me or not doesnt really apply; since I assume there were many of us PTing sith and the designers would probably apply the most popular opinions between the playtesters.

Honestly; I think it is pretty good as far as the current system is right now. I mean; some people (not necessarily referring to you DB) dont know what they are saying. If you look under Capt. Rex (CW)'s comments under the characters section; youll see some members saying that his cost on his base (24) would have made him "playable". Both you and I know that his 33-pt cost is low enough as it is lol. The designers need the discernment to sift out "bad" (i.e: non-realistic) opinions with the "plausible" ones. Your comments regarding the characters are fair points; but saying the community has no say isnt quite true. The community does have a say via PTers. Same with our Democracy. We have a say via our senators.

As far as your comment about changing rules b/c "WOTC doesnt control the game anymore"; that would make things waaay too complicated (for oldies; not newbies that is). Would you rather use rules that a veteran community of probably over 5000 has used since '04; or satisfy a few newbies who stray into the game so that to them the game "makes sense"? Yes; Lightsaber is a wacky ability; as well as a bunch of others; but thats how it is and thats how the designers plan to keep it. And besides; if we start making exceptions now; whos to say what "exceptions" we will make later? Currently; WOTCs ruling is the backbone of our game. If we lose that to satisfy our "logical" senses or even plausible complaints; we lose what made the game what is is today. As of now WOTCs rules are our "Absolute truth". If the community begins to alter that; we lose what is defined as right b/c; hey; we can alter it anytime b/c it doesnt seem "fair". Moreover; its hard enough to remember characters stats in general. its even HARDER to remember stats that werent meant for specific characters or stats that were meant to be on a character (ex: Krayt). As stated before; changing things too much up after the company is done supporting the game proves to be detrimental in the end; as proven by the old SWCCG as stated by a designer.

Whew....that was a pretty long rant. On a side note; I am NOT a designer; and I do not intend in any way to change what the designers themselves have been saying. Everything i wrote regarding the designers is presumed to be what they are trying to say based on what i read. I apologize if I misspoke for the designers in my post.

Sithborg made a side comment about Bombad Gungan and I didn't get it.
creme_brule made a side comment about Krayt and I didn't get it.

Can anyone explain?

More like the non-Melee Krayt everyone has.

Bombad Gungan is a nightmare in terms of rules. The headaches it must've given Nickname...

So, I met Deaths Baine when the Atlanta group traveled to Tennessee. The whole Tennessee crowd was awesome. I particularly remember Deaths Baine being extra hospitable to the Atlanta folks. (And I think he had a decent showing in the tourney that day as well.) So, I have no doubts he wants a productive conversation in all this…

Anyways, my two cents to Death Baine:

-I really do think the designers take the communities opinions into account. Often, it is done through playtesting, but I’ve seen lots ability suggestions posted on bloomilk incorporated into the V-sets.

-Send a pm to Daniel (Echo) or David (Weeks) expressing interest in playtesting. You meet these guys at the regional tourney. I can’t speak for them, but I am extremely confident they would be glad to bring the Tennessee guys on board for playtesting. In fact, David recently posted a thread asking for more playtesters.

-I honestly think that if a piece was found to be broken, the designers would take steps to errata this. It would be a very rare, thoughtful, methodical process but it could happen. In fact, it happened before with GOWK. That piece was out for ~ year (through an entire regional season) before the adjustment was made.

-I can understand your concerns, but hang in there, because as a whole the system is pretty good. For example, I’ve seen Daniel (Echo) go from playtester, to head playtester, to Designer over the course of the V-sets. Now, he was not a community “insider” by any means. In fact, about two years ago, the SWM crowd was not really aware of Daniel or the Atlanta crowd. He got to be a designer because he put time and effort into the community. I think this trend holds for all members of the SWM community.

-Anyways, you guys and Ultrastar deserve credit for getting a regional going in Tennessee. I hope the ATL folks can make it out next year.

Just keep in mind, that scaling up the power may not necessarily mean it kills stuff with higher HPs. In fact, they left it open enough to restrict the characters it defeats fairly well, if needed. It would get to be pretty long, but it can be restricted beyond base size and HP.