I don't want to drag this out too long, but I do think she's more multi-faceted than you give her credit for. At the least, she has the option of either sitting in the back, Cloaked, waiting to turn pieces into Rakghouls, or being used as a pure beatstick (especially with Thrawn, where she can swap in late round, then get the first activation of the next round). And while a good player might not let you pull off Sith Alchemy too often, it at least forces them to play differently - they might have to keep low HP living pieces entirely out of the fray.

On the other hand, you might not actually want to use Zannah's offensive powers very often, as you often want to save her force points for defense. The last time I saw her used, she spent all her remaining force points on a Force Corruption, and had nothing left for defence; it wasn't a good play in my opinion.

Lots of good 50+ point pieces are pretty single faceted - I love the new Mace, but realistically all you can do with him is run him in and bash stuff.

Also, the problem is that if you have a character that's purely based around Force Powers targeted against Living Characters, it'll never see competitive play, as it's screwed against Vong and Seperatist Droid squads. The current version is nice and balanced - even if you never use the cool force powers, she's still a good beatstick.

Darth Reave! I should know lol, I made customs out of EVERY single one of thoes red and black sith.

Regardless, if you expect over complication and limitation of abilities for the purposes of only ever doing it directly to those the specific character did it to in the story, you will be let down.

Most people want the game to remain simple. Sith Alchemy is a general ability, not just an ability of Celeste. It's an abstraction of a concept, like everything else in the game. Making it restricted to something like "living non-force users" would have made it relatively a waste of time. That would eliminate it from both force immune (Vong and bubble characters) and all force users. So 50% of the squads, you have 0 chance to use it at all, other than maybe 2-3 ugnaughts who the opponent will hide in the back. Not a good design.

To address the "beat stick" vs. "strong through the force" argument laid out by Neifi. I think you are mistaken in the way you interpret a character. "Triple" attack is an abstraction of multiple things, including being made "Strong by the force". Darth Vaders have often had it. Jedi hunter is in part an abstraction of it. So is Lightsaber Dualist - all characters with this in canon use the force to become better fighters.

Heck, every lightsaber style is augmented by the use of the force. But they don't require "force powers" in game terms to represent it. The force making her naturally stronger is better represented by non-force using abilities in our game. Force powers themselves are meant for abstracting very specific uses of the force that a character was particularly good at. But its certainly far from being the only way.

Earlier you suggested that rakghouls were the model of design. That is untrue. I used two models of other physically gifted through the force fighters. Darth Tyranus and Darth Vader JH. DT has a LS style, but before those were added to the game, he had Dualist. DVJH had triple attack and jedi hunter. I combined those aspects into Celeste specifically to represent her giftedness in fighting through the force. The tailsman didn't give her just new force powers, but the ability to fight any jedi she encountered and win. I don't know how else you expected us to abstract her ability to beat Zain, Darth Vader, Cade and Krayt as well as numerous non-force users without making her a beatstick.

As for the idea that her force powers are simply "interesting" - well they are much more than that. Force storm admittedly is not a great power with very specific limited use. It fits on her because she did it to Krayt and company. But it added next to nothing to her cost, was more added for flavor. Sith Alchemy however is a game changer. If you think I'm crazy, then ask my opponent from a 200pt tournament at Gencon where he brought Vong/shooters/bomb mix against my Skybuck squad. I brought in one rak via reinforcement and preceded to make 13 new ones by the end of the game. My big guys barely needed to fight. You've complained that she can only make one every two turns, but seriously, if you've played it correctly and in a good squad, 1 is all you need. The threat of it in fact is more than enough to justify the ability, even if never used. It's a huge deal if your opponent can't just willy nilly open doors with their ugnaughts the entire game. They can't afford to leave their big pieces with low hps remaining anywhere near you. It's a massively strategic ability that I can't help but think you have yet to master.

As for cloak, this should be obvious. She had it as a shadow, and used it against several of the jedi she fought in the later years. Ambush the same deal. It's one of the ways she defeats these well known tough fighters. But unlike cloaked, you are correct she doesn't always use it. Which is why the optional force cloak is a perfect abstraction of what she did.

You rightly point out that she has limited "attack options". I like simple straightforward designs. But she is hardly a figure lacking complexity. Strategically she's one of the most popular pieces by players like me who like strategic options and ways to control the game. I love that when I play her, my opponent right out of the gate is forced to spend the entire game worrying about Sith Alchemy and playing everything completely different than they are used to doing. That gives me an advantage. Oddly, you compared her to Zannah, who is actually quite boring to play for the strategically minded. All you do with her is run into battle and start rolling dice. Woohoo, excitement...

Hey, Mando,
watch this:

Savages needed a boost and Celeste's CE helps a ton!

You are still missing the point! She had nothing with the savages!!! Except for the raghouls. Savages don't need her boost. It's like, for example, to give Luke Skywalker huge CEs for savages and then tell that savages need a boost!?!

For one thing, the people behind the V-set's doing design and playtesting all take into account competitveness...

No, they are just obsessed with some activation control, door control , gambit(!?!) etc. There is nothing of Star Wars "ambient'' there... Their prime enemy and target are DOORS, which must be all ruthlessly destroyed! Their most important characters in the squads are uggies!!! What else to say... According to the mentioned objectives they are making new characters and their abilities. Before watching this forums I didn't know that uggi demo. is so important in the Star Wars universe...

So I think the designers do know quite well what they are doing, and what they are doing is right.

Fine with you, go ahead, destroy all the doors and rush to the center of the map. That's Star Wars!?


There are many by far better (by characteristics and by art design) cards made by real SW fans!!!!

Nefie fine explained just one of the many, many totally wrongly (erroneously, mistakenly...) designed characters.

Im sorry you feel that way alek. No one is forcing you to use these cards.

@billiv15

(this will be loooooong, so sorry!)

First, just want to say, after your explanation I can totally understand where you were coming from on the choices made. Might not agree completely with some of the conclusions; but at least I know they were for an actual reason! (I had sadly questioned it for a while, not having the insight you have now given)

RE1, Era/Faction ~ This I actually completely disagree with, and might even be able to persuade you

- Celeste despised the Sith; so much so she sacrificed her life just to spite them.
- Celeste first lived right smack dab in the middle of the Mandalorian Wars; she is not going to be fighting on their side.
- Celeste next awoke because of Vader; an encounter which left her with more than a nasty taste for the Empire. Next we see Celeste, she is being used as a trap by Vader to destroy Rebels. She attacks her visitors, but lets Luke and Leia go after realizing they are Jedi with no affiliation to the Sith or Empire. (She specifically names the two, showing she is obsessing on the Empire already) After the Rebels flee, what does Celeste do? Grabs a ship and goes hunting Imps! (We then see the first of at least two Star Destroyers see took out)
- Lastly we encounter Celeste in a time of the Sith and Empire becoming one in the same once again. Celeste is impressed with Cade (and only Cade) and offers to join his mission to destroy Sith Lord Krayt, self-appointed leader of you know what.

Conclusion; she absolutely cannot, under any circumstances, be in a Sith, Mando or Empire build. She never knew the Republic, Seps or Vong, so they don’t work at all either. And while she came in contact with the Rebels, it was merely a non-consequential moment. NR affiliation is debatable. Meanwhile, she was always Jedi-Order/OR – it just stopped officially existing before she did.

So she is Old Republic with affinity for Cade and/or NR – nothing else really makes sense. Otherwise, people can role-play different Era situations if they so choose (where she will probably be surrounded by merely Fringe anyway)

RE2-5, touches on some of your many comments regarding Design and Abilities

Cloaked ~ After your mentioning I might have missed her hiding in the shadows post-Talisman, I was intrigued and quickly flipped through the pages of the books. Is there a specific moment you can direct me to? Because, honestly, I just don’t see it. The Vader awakening is dark scenes period for dramatic effect, but she seems to be away from hiding and walls/posts at almost all times (she was thrown into them once, and used them for a leap, but otherwise…) She also stayed in the cave when Luke/Rebels came, but that is arguably as much “why bother coming out” as cloak; and she instantly came out in the open when Luke backed up close to the cave, assuming he was sent to kill her. Doesn’t matter though I guess; it is a Shadow aspect of her so if you’re openly mixing versions, it’s perfectly fine.

Alchemy ~ no real problem here. Don’t care for it allowing converted Force Users (a no-no in the comic, but forgivable for game-play reasons) and maybe being a bit limiting because of the 20HP thing (can get over that too). Only lasting issue I have there is it replacing attacks, her not having MOTF and/or missing a better regain to be able to use other Force powers – powers she is missing anyway. And that is ultimately more of a non-Alchemy issue merely highlighted by Alchemy.

Talisman ~ See Pulsipher, and the Talisman creating Rakghouls prior to attaching to anyone. Any wearer could control it and its spawn, but it ultimately worked completely on its own too, leaving savage beasts in its wake. That said, agree 100% she was boring prior to it and should be represented with it.

Creating Powers ~ totally understand, and on official sets it’s definitely important. (leave the crazy amounts of new abilities to the fans and our nutty customs! Lol) That said, because of very special circumstances, I think a Muur Talisman ability could have probably been acceptable as a special circumstance (if a Muur Spirit was never a real possibility, at least ) That doesn’t mean it was absolutely needed, just that I doubt anyone would question a one-off like it since it is a key part of her.


And since you replied (with another pretty long one) before I could get up my post, here’s to the second… (with some of it actually covered by the above post anyway)

First, last sentence ~ I actually wasn’t comparing her to Zannah, just showing the limited choice options on Celeste herself against the other high-point Force users in the set. Doesn’t mean one is better than another, just that you don’t have many turn options on Celeste herself where others have a bunch. She is very limited round by round – but yeah, she opens up other options otherwise, won’t deny that.

“Beatstick” paragraph ~ nah, you’re right and even when typing it I was thinking someone might reply as you did. But based off parts of your post, I also think you know what I was saying too.

Rakghoul being base design ~ I had suggested that was a possibility before you had replied. And I think you must admit, it would look like at least a possibility if one didn’t have your designer insight. That said, as the other post states, you have shown there is reason behind all.

RE Complaining about making just one Rakghoul ~ actually, my complaint is that she can’t use other force abilities. Making one Rak every other round is really fine, it limits how many she can do meaning she can’t convert entire squads. But if doing so every other round, it means 4-6 rounds (depending on Cloak) of absolutely no Force otherwise. If absolutely nothing more, I would think such a character would be able to do re-rolls and/or +move once or twice even if doing Alchemy.

Realistically, the 20HP threshold already limits how many Raks she can make most of the time anyway. Saving your FP to be able to use Alchemy a couple rounds in a row later might mean you never get to use it even once. Meanwhile you would have lost the opportunity to use any other FPs prior because you were collecting to use Alchemy. I just don't think that is Celeste, she used the force constantly.

One side-note question ~ you obviously understand her capabilities, and worked hard to limit her powers to fit into a constrained piece. Why not just make her an Epic though? Would have made her easier to make I imagine, would have allowed for more appropriate gameplay (huge cost would even limit the other characters in a squad, representing her being the ultimate loner) and would have meant a possible one-off power or two were more understandable.

Because I wanted a playable Celeste for multiple factions. Remember, Zayne and Cade are fringe, the primary people she worked with. She never joins any faction other than the OR however, as you well put. But that's the abstraction of our faction rules. They never work perfectly without 5-10 additional restrictions or more added to every card (think Han/Boba or Krayt/Sion and on and on). Celeste has to be fringe. As for the "Sith" the problem is she is part Sith when she puts on the Tailsman. Muir is certainly Sith. Sith Alchemy is certainly Sith. So she has to have at least an option to be in there, just like Cade can be Sith.

As for the "Epic" question, I wanted her playable in regular skirmishes as she's a favorite character of mine and one of the very first customs I made. She was also one of the top 5 wants from the community. An unplayable Epic other than limited formats as the first and only Celeste would not have made most people happy.

Now as to the future, the popularity of Epic Set 1 was really strong. We are making an Epic set 2 (I will confirm there is no Celeste). But there's a strong chance that one day down the road we might do an Epic Celeste with all/most of her powers. That is the fun of making those characters. But with that said, you might as well be complaining about the 21 non-Epic Vaders that never had all his powers that WotC made, before we finally made you an Epic. I just don't see the point in that.

As for the idea of making a Muir, I suggest you put your +1 on the what would you like list and see what happens in the future.

And one final omission - She was very hard to make because of all the reasons you said. But I like a challenge and am really happy with the final result. No jedi ever has everything they ever did (unless they are like a 1 scene character or something). No Luke has all his powers at once. No Vader, certainly no Kyle. But I will consider the idea of doing a Celeste as an Epic down the road.

Now on a much more fun note, not only do I have a pretty awesome custom Celeste, but I now have 20 Rakghouls all painted different colors for her army. Haven't had a chance to pull it out yet, but I'm pretty sure at least one of my regional squads will use her :)

The Tailsman didn't in the comics, but there is no explanation to it.

However the ancient Sith were very capable of turning force users with alchemy. Consider it a limitation created as a plot devise that wasn't consistent with canon.

Again, we gave her alchemy, the generic power, not a special ability of only what we saw her do. It's an abstraction. In terms of game play. She already cannot do it to force immune characters, which coincidentally represents two very strong squad types. Did you really want us to take away all force users too? If we did that, Celeste would not be playable at all.

"Because I wanted a playable Celeste for multiple factions. Remember, Zayne and Cade are fringe, the primary people she worked with."

They are both fringe - that's the point. The only two people she ever fought in a semi-group with are both fringe. They can be with her even if she is OR. And in the specific cases, Zayne in essence re-joined the OR to help Celeste anyway, where she fought on behalf of Cade alone (well, and her hatred of the Sith and Imps)


"As for the "Sith" the problem is she is part Sith when she puts on the Tailsman. Muir is certainly Sith. Sith Alchemy is certainly Sith. So she has to have at least an option to be in there, just like Cade can be Sith."

Yeah, but thats the whole point of her wearing the Talisman - she personally was able to keep the Sith aspect controlled so the Sith could never use it. If she wanted to help the Sith, she would have just let the Talisman go (as she desperately wanted to do) or use it to take over the galaxy. The only reason she ever let it go was so it could go to Cade - a person she knew would not go Sith with it himself.

I'm sorry, her being in a squad of Sith is the absolutely single most unrealistic possibility there is in the entire game. She gave up her life to fight the Sith - not join them. (besides, you left Muur off of the "Counts as", so he must not be with her )


"But there's a strong chance that one day down the road we might do an Epic Celeste with all/most of her powers."

Sweet


"But with that said, you might as well be complaining about the 21 non-Epic Vaders that never had all his powers that WotC made, before we finally made you an Epic. I just don't see the point in that."

But that gets to the question of why V-Sets are made - just to make random figures even if in the questionable style of WOTS, or to improve and correct errors of theirs? I thought it was the later, and like the improved forethought that brings.


"Now on a much more fun note, not only do I have a pretty awesome custom Celeste, but I now have 20 Rakghouls all painted different colors for her army. Haven't had a chance to pull it out yet, but I'm pretty sure at least one of my regional squads will use her :)"

Sweet!!!

Last week I received my base-piece to make my Celeste as well, and have 5 Raks on the way to go with the 4 I already have (two Promos, so only different colors I have - so far ) Wish I had 20, but blasted, they are hard to find!

Now planning on sacrificing one to see if I can get a mold though - really, really, really want to see if I might be able to pull off a Mando-Armor, Gun-Toting Rakghoul for my new Shooting Raks custom ability you forced me to make

If she was her proper OR fraction, it probably wouldnt be much of a problem. Just saying...