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Update.
Played an excellent player using GOWK on Muunilist. I tried to make it as challenging as possible and put the Emperor in gambit off center to get cover from the pillars. Rex was able to put 40 dmg on the Emperor 1st round. I was able to win by points after an hour. He was left with GOWK, Rex and R2. I had the Emperor with 10hp left, Vader with 100hp, Dash full health, Jagged and Ozzel. I also had 8 gambit.
Took first place in a tournament using same build.
First match was on ruined base against a mando squad using Boba Mercernary Commander. I took the outside and setup as usual.
3rd round I baited my opponent with Vader. He did 80 dmg of which I dark armored 20. After I out activated him I used Dash to shoot Boba for 80dmg and then Vader force gripped him for 40dmg.
4th round he spent all his activations shooting at Vader to no avail. I then made him painfully aware of LT5 and did 40dmg to each of his remaining pieces.
After this it took 2 more rounds of cleaning up with Dash.
Second match played against the following build on ruined base.
--2nd Round--
45 Mara Jade, Jedi
28 Dash Rendar, Renegade Smuggler
26 Kyp Durron
24 Talon Karrde
15 Lobot, Computer Liaison Officer
10 Jagged Fel
(148pts. 6 activations)
Opponent won map choice but opted instead to let me choose since we had the same map. (Not sure if that was legal). He setup on the outside and I setup with the Emperor inside the turbo lift in gambit.
2nd round I used an ugnaught who spent a force point to move 8 to blow the small rooms door. I then used Dash to kill his Jagged fel and then Vader gripped lobot who was overriding the door I blew.
3rd round he moved Dash out and took 4 shots at Vader and missed 4 times since he needed 20s to hit. He also repositioned Mara out of harms way. After I out activated him I made my only mistake of positioning the Gran 1 space back from the Imperial Dignitary that I used to open the main door. I then used Dash to hit Mara 3 times for 60 dmg.
4th round he used Talon to kill the Dignitary because he couldn't see the Gran that I positioned 1 space back and then proceeded to base Dash with Kyp and hit for 60 and then shot with Mara killing Dash. After I out activated him I used Jagged to shoot Kyp for 10 and then used the Emperor's force lightning and Vader's grip to finish him off.
5th round he moved Mara and Talon in front of the main door with talon 1 space back from the door and Mara within 6 of the Emperor two spaces behind talon. I then used Jagged to open the door and force gripped Talon.
6th round Dash shot 2 of my ugnaughts I was using for blockers and then based the Emperor and did 90 dmg. I then only had 1 option left. I used force lightning to do 40 on Mara which in turn killed the Emperor and put 40 on Jagged. I then based Mara with Vader and killed her.
Last round I killed Talon and won on gambit points.
The last few matches were uneventful. I demolished each squad. One was a Crix Madine, Luke RC, ERC squad. I only lost a couple of ugnaughts and a Storm Commando I got with ozzels reserves that I let him kill since he asked so nicely and because all he had left was Crix and a ERC with 10hp.
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Did you try the squad I suggested vs yours?
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Not yet, but I will try to this week.
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Alright, let me know how it goes.
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@awsome. I have two questions about your squad. Are you aware that Princess Leia, Senator's CE doesn't allow Cade to do double and then move? It requires that you end your move within 6 to gain the extra 2 squares during the end of your turn. Since you didn't move at all, you haven't met the requirements to end your move. Also what is the optimal map choice for your squad?
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@ owaller3
I'm just not seeing how you're beating the GOWK squads so easily. I played against a similar build to this, though it had Thrawn and swap fodder instead of Dash/Jag. I was playing a GOWK/Rex/Dash build, but not even the 'top' build with the Human BG that most people have been tossing around. I absolutely destroyed the Imperial squad. GOWK never even took any damage. I lost my Lobot CLO to a LT5, and then took 40 each on Dash and Rex (key point is to make sure Vader has to alternate who he hits) from Grips. Just sounds to me like the GOWK players aren't playing too smartly.
For the game on the Muunilist map, all you have to do is advance Dash/Rex up through the rooms on the opposite side of the map, then open fire on Palps from the other side. Or, close in from one side, base with the Caamasi, and then use Greater Mobile to move in back-and-forth and finish off Palps pretty quickly.
Even better though....Ignore Palpatine. Go after Vader/Dash/Jag. Palpatine's stupid Evade is what makes him tough to kill, not his Defense. Rex/Dash should hit, on average, about half their shots against Vader, and way more than that against Dash. And with R2's help, it's not that hard to get into position for a nice volley of shots.
I just haven't seen it work consistently enough. Granted, I think this build with Dash/Jag is probably better than the Thrawn/swap fodder ideas though. Having FPs to re-roll Dash's Evades or attacks is pretty cool.
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@lobostele
Viable is a much better squad against GOWK then the other build. On Muunilist my opponent used the exact strategy you describe. You need to understand that the key to winning is not allowing Dash to get opportunist off and always activating the Emperor, Vader, and Dash last after your opponent has activated everything. You use the Imperial Dignitary as mobile cover for the Emperor if he is not placed in a green square. When you do this Rex has a 40% chance to hit and Dash has a 30% chance to hit. When they do hit, the Emperor has a 50% to evade and then once per turn he can reroll this. This allows the Emperor to be a meat shield and soak up alot of shots. I have yet to lose him to Rex and Dash. This also allows you to keep Vader and Dash in LOS because neither Dash nor Rex have accurate. So then its a matter of repositioning Vader and Dash to get shots off. As for the Camaasi strategy if you move in Rex or Dash they will be dead in 1 round because of Vader and Dash put out 120dmg per round and you will have to expose them to do this. I am yet to have someone keep a Camaasi alive against me.
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owaller3 wrote:@lobosteleViable is a much better squad against GOWK then the other build. I agree, it is better. But not that much better. Answer this: How often do you lose at the LGS? I would guess you probably are a much better player than most of your opponents, and your posts seem to reflect that. So take that as a compliment. But it also comes with a problem, that I don't think you are seeing opponents who can run this stuff at top tier levels, and so, you are beating them, and then touting the squad as the answer. For example, you stated that you simply use the Dignitary to keep Palps in cover, and that your opponent can never shoot the Dignitary, yet at the same time, you assert that you have never had anyone successfully keep a caamasi next to your Palps. Reading your game reports, also shows you recognized a number of errors your opponent's made. Like forgetting LT5, or allowing Boba to be baited by Vader. Top level players are much less likely to fall for bait that will leave them with their big figure dying, without killing something with it first. I think your opponents are not focusing fire properly, and you are taking advantage of that. Since you are using Ozzel (good choice in this squad), your opponent has one advantage on you, in that you can only respond with one activation at a time. They need to learn to use that to their advantage. For example, I wouldn't bother with Palps in most cases, I would move in on Dash or Vader first. I am also good enough that I know exactly what your squad is capable of doing to me in return, so I will move to negate your ability to focus both Vader's grip or throw, and Dash's shots at the end of a round. I can count carefully, so this idea that you get to do 120dmg after I move is just not accurate. You are going to have to use Dash and Jagged to kill my screeners, get ugos to blow the doors I'm hiding behind, and hit me in cover. I will spread the grip's across the three different figures as needed, and prevent you from making the first easy kill that you are used to. Hop on Vassal, I would be happy to show you. With that said, this is the better of the two squads, but it's still not the "answer" to GOWK that you are claiming it is.
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owaller3 wrote:@lobostele
Viable is a much better squad against GOWK then the other build. On Muunilist my opponent used the exact strategy you describe. You need to understand that the key to winning is not allowing Dash to get opportunist off and always activating the Emperor, Vader, and Dash last after your opponent has activated everything. You use the Imperial Dignitary as mobile cover for the Emperor if he is not placed in a green square. When you do this Rex has a 40% chance to hit and Dash has a 30% chance to hit. When they do hit, the Emperor has a 50% to evade and then once per turn he can reroll this. This allows the Emperor to be a meat shield and soak up alot of shots. I have yet to lose him to Rex and Dash. This also allows you to keep Vader and Dash in LOS because neither Dash nor Rex have accurate. So then its a matter of repositioning Vader and Dash to get shots off. As for the Camaasi strategy if you move in Rex or Dash they will be dead in 1 round because of Vader and Dash put out 120dmg per round and you will have to expose them to do this. I am yet to have someone keep a Camaasi alive against me. You missed my major point. You ignore Palpatine in these builds. He can't do anything unless you're within 6 squares of him. Even on the new Muunilist, it sounds like you're trying to hide Vader/Dash behind Palpatine. A solid player just isn't going to do that for you. You can't start Palpatine straddling a door, so R2 can simply lock it from one side, and Tow Cable Rex up to base Dash, BLAM, dead Dash. I mean, I just don't see how you could fully defend from that. Otherwise, if you're keeping Vader/Dash back far enough that they are out of reach from a Tow Cable like that, then there are more than enough places to Mobile behind on ALL maps to keep you from ever getting 120 damage worth of attacks off (not to mention that your Dash won't hit all those shots either). I will echo Bill's comments that it sounds to me like you're the top player in your venue anyway, so while that doesn't completely invalidate the squad, it does skew things a bit. It IS a good squad, so don't feel like anybody is slamming you for it. I like the build, and it's fun to play. We're just discussing the possibilities. :)
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@Billiv15
It is true that most of the players I have defeated are lesser players. However, the last match I played against GOWK was against the only opponent who has been able to consistently beat me in tournament play. When ever we both enter tournaments it's either him or I that win and usually if we don't play in earlier rounds we play against each other for first. As for LGS losses I only lose against the aforementioned player everyone else I always beat unless I am playing a redicules squad for fun.
As for the Imperial Dignitary, he is always next to the Emperor which means your opponent will always have LOS on the Emperor and therefore cannot shoot him. As for my opponent using a Camaasi they need to have the same scenario. When they do I either kill the small fodder they place in LOS and then kill the Camaasi or I do alot of damage to the larger piece they put in LOS. If it's GOWK he takes atleast 40dmg from Vader.
As for going after Vader or Dash, I always keep them near each other and always behind the Emperor. I do this for 3 reasons. 1. They will always have cover. 2. Unless your opponent has accurate (which GOWK doesn't) they are not a legal target. 3. If your opponent tries to take down one of them they will both be able to respond in turn.
As for the easy kill theory, in the last GOWK match I didn't kill anything easily and most of my kills were on fodder used to protect the big 3 pieces. It took 6 rounds before I killed Dash which I prefer to kill Rex first. The opponent did the same exact strategy of making me have to blow doors and spread damage across the 3 top pieces but after 6 rounds of this one of the piece (in this case Dash) was killed.
I am not touting this as the answer to GOWK. I am simply playing it and listing the results. If everyone would like me to stop please PM me and I will do so.
Lastly, I don't use Vassal because I lack the time to learn it. I barely get in 1 match a week in the real world. I work in the Defense industry and am working towards an MBA. So forgive me I don't have the time. If time allows, I may be at GenCon. I will also try to be at regionals in New Jersey.
P.S. I can count carefully too.
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@LoboStele
The 120 dmg scenario was if you base the Emperor with a Camaasi and then try to mobile in with Rex or Dash to shoot the Emperor. This strategy would leave Rex or Dash exposed and therefore I would be able to use Vader and Dash at the end of the round to do 120 dmg. This scenario rarely happens since a good player wouldn't sacrifice a major piece like that. Vader and Dash spend most of their time being deterrents and killing fodder while the Emperor eats up gambit. The Emperor soaks up shots and time runs out with me having 5*rounds points + points on killing fodder and if I am lucky a dead Rex or Dash.
The R2 tow cable tactic would work if I put them in harms way. Luckily, I can count carefully. As for the locked door on the Emperor I have 3 ugnaughts one of which (when I play the inside on the Ruined Base) plays door patrol for this exact reason. With that said, even if you pull this off all you have done is exposed R2 and what ever else you have towed with it.
You can't play this squad in the conventional way it takes alot of restraint and timing.
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owaller3 wrote:
You can't play this squad in the conventional way it takes alot of restraint and timing.
And all you need to do to kill it, is kill one of the three damage dealers, before he does anything. Which is not that hard, especially Dash. What you generally would do against this, depending on map, and for sake of argument, let's just say you won map and choose new Muun. So round one, I advance through the rooms and you get gambit, I ignore it, and you can't shoot me because you can't blow the doors on turn one. So 5-0 you. Round two, I am now probably in towing range with Rex/Dash and Obi, but I don't necessarily go at that point. Again, I probably kill some of your ugs as they try to open the doors, and keep myself protected in return as I advance well within the tow range. You move Dash and Vader into their best positions, but it won't help much. Round two ends, probably 10-6 you. Round three, I strike, and I strike with all three. I charge palps and base with the Caamasi first, and some fodder figure right behind it, you are forced to either ignore it for now, or waste Dash killing it. If you burn Dash, you just lost, because I tow mine, base yours, and kill it unless I roll a 1. If you don't, I tow Rex, base and have to roll 3 4 times. Now you are down Dash, and Vader can only do 40 dmg. GOWK bases Vader, you do whatever you want with Vader, I won't care, and Rex/Dash whomever is left just starts firing as well. Now you've got Vader doing 40, vs my Dash, REx and GOWK. The guy you played who went 6 rounds without killing your Dash played too cautiously, and wasn't willing to trade his own figures for kills, which is a key strategy point in this game, that even a lot of good players miss. And now let's assume I win map, and choose Rancor pit, which is the map I typically use with Rex/Dash/GOWK. Well, from either side, I can easily avoid Palps, and get within tow range of your figures without you being able to see mine. What's worse, is I can collect gambit, and kill your Palps by the end of round 2 without exposing if you try to stay hidden from me. I would almost call it an auto-loss on my map for you.
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Quote:Originally Posted by fingersandteeth
--Old Bens Boys--
44 Obi-Wan Kenobi, Unleashed
28 Luke Skywalker, Hoth Pilot Unleashed
27 Han Solo, Smuggler
14 General Rieekan
9 General Dodonna
9 R2-D2 with Extended Sensor
8 Juno Eclipse
5 Caamasi Noble
3 Mouse Droid
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist
(150pts. 10 activations) If you are up for more playtesting, try this too. It's looking like one the best rebel options in the new meta. Try it against the GOWk squad and the imperial squad.
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@billiv15
I will have someone try this strategy. However, I don't think you understand how I place my figures. First of all on Muunilist (Not my choice of map. Probably one of the worst maps for my squad) I place the Emperor right in gambit. There is no possible way you are going to base the Emperor with all three without them being exposed the round before. You could tow in Rex and maybe get a force push with GOWK if (which is never the case) I don't have some fodder in LOS closer. So lets say you do pull off a base with Rex and hit 4 times and a force push with GOWK. You have done 110 dmg so you better hope Dash will hit 3 more times or else the Emperor will last another round. It is now a given that you have lost Rex to Dash (+14 for 20dmg a shot plus reroll) and have taken 40dmg on GOWK. Let's say you win initiative and use GOWK to kill the Emperor. My response will be to wait Dash out again and force grip GOWK for 40dmg and shoot 4 times at GOWK with Dash. You better hope over the next 4 rounds that you don't miss 2 of your saves and you better kill Vader with GOWK who will have 40 hp left.
Maybe it is you who needs to play higher skilled players.
P.S. Whatever happened to you not posting on my squads?
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owaller3 wrote:@billiv15
I will have someone try this strategy. However, I don't think you understand how I place my figures. First of all on Muunilist (Not my choice of map. Probably one of the worst maps for my squad) I place the Emperor right in gambit. There is no possible way you are going to base the Emperor with all three without them being exposed the round before. You could tow in Rex and maybe get a force push with GOWK if (which is never the case) I don't have some fodder in LOS closer. So lets say you do pull off a base with Rex and hit 4 times and a force push with GOWK. You have done 110 dmg so you better hope Dash will hit 3 more times or else the Emperor will last another round. It is now a given that you have lost Rex to Dash (+14 for 20dmg a shot plus reroll) and have taken 40dmg on GOWK. Let's say you win initiative and use GOWK to kill the Emperor. My response will be to wait Dash out again and force grip GOWK for 40dmg and shoot 4 times at GOWK with Dash. You better hope over the next 4 rounds that you don't miss 2 of your saves and you better kill Vader with GOWK who will have 40 hp left.
Maybe it is you who needs to play higher skilled players.
P.S. Whatever happened to you not posting on my squads? This isn't on a squad, you posted it in public. And I am not attacking you in anyway, I am simply debating the effectiveness of the squad against GOWK. I asked you not to comment on my squad pages, never said anything about the public forums. Out of courtesy I have done the same for you, but if you start overstating something in the public forums, I will continue to debate it on the merits of the argument. I wasn't talking about basing the Emp either, I was talking about going after Vader or Dash first. The Emp gets based with the caamasi so he can't do anything, with a gran or ugo behind it. But even in your scenario, how is your Dash living to wait me out a second time? Why am I not killing it before he activates? I could foresee a situation where I might take out the Emperor first, but my general strategy would be to try to isolate Vader, by taking out Dash first. I am more than confident that in most cases this would be successful when run by a good player who knows the two squads well. As far as me needing to play better players? LMFAO. Ok, I see above you said Ravaged base was the map you had. That's even easier because you have to get within range of my towing and I 3 different directions I can go to get around the Emperor. Did you test your squad against Rex/Dash on that map?
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[quote=owaller3]@billiv15 Maybe it is you who needs to play higher skilled players. [quote] Talk about a gauntlet... @owaller...I posted quick and easy VASSAL instructions on Bloo Milk, so it shouldn't take much time at all for you to get it going. Here ya go: http://www.bloomilk.com/Forums/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=497
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@Billiv15
You are right. You are always right. I apologize for listing results of matches I have played. Please don't post anymore comments here as it is uneccessary you have soundly defeated my logic. This thread is now reserved for those who are < Billiv15.
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Well, just played the game, on Ravaged base, against Yodarulz on Vassal. I won easily, killing his Dash round 3, never took a lightning, and never lost anything more than scrubs. His Vader died soon after Dash, and put 80 on Obi with two grips, but Obi put 60 on Vader as well, then ran away back to R2, who the following round, towed Obi back in for the force push to kill Vader.
It pretty much played out exactly like I said it would.
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I just lost to billiv15. Dash didn't get to do much, and Palpatine was based by the Camaasi, nullifying him. There was only so much I could do. I did that, and lost.
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@Billiv15
You've prodded me enough. I'll look into learning Vassal and try to get a 2 hour block to play you. No promises since I am extremely busy but I will give it a go. I'll PM you with a time.
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