Strongly disagree. That's why Page was created, and with the Strike Leader and/or Crix, they're not bad. No, they're not the most competitive piece anymore, but they are nowhere near completely obsolete. The Bothan Spy from Rebel Storm is completely obsolete. These guys aren't. Same goes for the 501st. No, they're not necessarily the best use of 11 points, and a squad has to consist of a large number of them for them to be useful, but they're not awful pieces.

I'm still getting a bad vibe here about the original Revan. The only reason anybody dislikes him so much is because of his cost. Yes, he may be overcosted (considering the power creep that has allowed Legacy Mace, Maul Infiltrator, Jaina SotJ, and even Master Corran, to name a few, to best him easily, all at more than 20 points fewer in cost), but to say he's one of the worst pieces in the game is ridiculous. He's a good piece, but he just doesn't fit well into most standard squads. I'm not denying the new Revan is a good piece as well, but I feel like undercutting the previous model by 26 points was a bit much. I just feel like the past V-Sets have almost intentionally made some of the older figures obsolete. That should definitely not be a goal. The point of the V-Sets was to expand the game, not restrict it. Let's make older pieces more playable instead of less playable. That being said, the community needs to be careful about continuously jacking up "sub-factions" and "classes" (Pilots is the first to come to mind). Making a few new commanders to spice things up a bit is what the V-Sets should be doing (that and adding more new characters, especially from the EU, not just revamps and stronger grunts), but there's a point at which it becomes too much. I will say though that all this discussion actually has me looking forward to the new V-Set, which is more than I can say about the past ones.

What I was referring to was DIRECT obsoletion. Compare the Rebel Commando vs the Veteran Rebel Commando. Same cost. Same SAs. But the Veteran had better stats accross the board AND Mobile Attack. The only thing the Rebel Commando had going for it was the Czerka, and even then, you are still better off with the Pathfinder.

Here's the thing about Revan, he just wasn't competitive when he released. His damage output was already put to shame when he was released by the other two 80+ Sith pieces. Master Tactician was impressive for the second one to get it, but remember A&E had just released, and NTMTO was making the rounds. His CE's are fine, but not game breaking. But one of his CE's got a better version on Malak, DLOTS. Sure, you could have fun with him. At the time, I was fairly happy, because it shut up the Revan fanboys, who were getting annoying. Also that 150 was the standard format then, he had a LOT of problems. His first mini was just so mediocre, and there are SOOOO many issues that it would take to fix him. Honestly, anything over Rapport -10 begins to get silly.

I look at Revan, and see a bunch of stuff added in, that most Sith made by WOTC did better. Except in the init control. Is it worth it to spend time to make such a piece playable? I just don't know what I could give him that would make him anything better than Bane, or Exar, or Krayt, or Malak, or Naga Sadow. At that point, you are better off saying, make a new fig.

I will agree that that feeling may be a bit too prevalent in the v sets.

i guess i never thought about Rapport for them but that would work well too. i really think between camaraderie and the squad abilities, and rapport they could be made more fun and possibly even competitive.

An interesting discussion, and one I'm glad that I brought up.

I'll agree that making commanders to boost old figures is the best way to deal with old, obsolete pieces. In fact, there are other really old pieces that haven't been close to playable in quite some time that I'm planning on making better. That is definitely the best way to deal with these pieces. The trouble we run into is with pieces like the old Rebel Troopers, where there are already a lot of them (including the Hoth Troopers) all in a very small range of points, and they are all bad. FlyingArrow's suggestion is interesting, but that Veteran Rebel Trooper is still WAY better than the other Rebel Trooper pieces from Rebel Storm; it doesn't directly obsolete them like my original suggestion or the Veteran Rebel Commando, but I still think there would be pretty much no reason to play the Elite Rebel Trooper. And then he even acknowledges that it obsoletes the regular Rebel Trooper! That's the position we are in with these kinds of pieces. It's hard to make a new Trooper anywhere in that point level (7-12 points) without making something obsolete, even if you make it work really well with another one.

I'm not going to get into the side conversation about old Revan, except for the fact that he is a very, very bad piece and always has been. There used a be a kid at our LGS that played him all the time (before v-sets!), so I played against him regularly, and he really was one of the most overcosted pieces in the game pretty much when he came out.

I guess I'll play the devil's advocate.

I personally think that some pieces, although it might take away from the game, should be obsolete. Period. This is a dead game, my friends. This is no longer a product of WoTC. the designers now have FREE RANGE of this game. If you are playing for fun, then why complain if your pieces are becoming obsolete? It's for FUN. lol.
Now, if you are a competitive player, then it is more appealing when better characters come out. No matter if they over shadow others.

Now, because I say this, doesn't mean i directly believe it, although i believe some parts are true. I don't like seeing old pieces go to waste. Thus why we have them to use as a virtual piece. As for the "just for fun" players, it's just as easy to create your own piece as it is to use a "regular" piece. Ultrastar and I, as well as a few others on the TN crew, have come up with pieces of our own just to try out and have fun with and see if the mechanics on the pieces work well or not. It's pretty fun, and spices up just using the same pieces and squads over and over.(although with the new vset, i've had no thought in using homemade pieces). So, to the designers, go in which ever direction you wish. Just don't make anymore naboo pilots ;) hahahaha.

This is just my 2 cents.

For the record, the Veteran Rebel Trooper isn't actually being made (well, at least not yet, or not by me). I just made something up for the sake of example. Don't get caught up on the specific piece, it was just a reference to the concept.

I understand. You did pick a tricky one for someone like me who takes the position that any piece can be salvaged. It's an interesting proof of concept exercise.

That's a neat twist - I like it! Kind of like Rapport, but not.

Camaraderie (If this character is in a squad with a character named Darth Revan, this character gains Sith Reinforcements 30.)

That leaves you with the choice of Old Revan with Reinforcements (and his whopping 88 cost) or new Revan without the reinforcements.

I believe the design team has had a good goal in making old pieces more playable through new units that boost the old ones. However, for something such as the Rebel Trooper, complicated inter-squad synergy is unnecessarily tedious; it also makes them completely vulnerable to Disruptive squads, unless you start using undisruptible commander effects more, which I disapprove of for the most part.The Rebel Trooper has almost NEVER been a competive/playable piece in anything other than scenario skirmishes. Although its a bad idea to consistenly re-upgrade pieces across the board, I encourage remaking up-to-date figures for terribly outclassed figures like the Rebel Trooper. Doing so is in no way obsoleting them; they are already obsolete.

The game would be more realistic if an individual piece were good on its own (a Rebel Trooper with decent stats/abilities) instead of making him completely helpless unless he's led by a commander who suddenly buffs him up. Leadership has an impact, but it doesn't GIVE Shields 2 for goodness's sake (as an example; I'm not necessarily criticizing General Weir).

I really hate pieces that sits in the start up area the whole skirmish... Bdo, dodona, san hill... but I guess that is the nature of commanders who aren't beat sticks. A bdo style boost would be nice, but I hate the type of piece, and think the ability is a bit cheap... In the design sense. What about something like:

Stand together: When a trooper ally is defeated, troopers gain +1 attack and +1 defense. This bonus stacks.