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Power Creep Options
urbanjedi
Posted: Monday, April 29, 2013 5:43:11 PM
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To address the "power creep" issue, I just played a squad with all WOTC pieces (nothing newer than IE) on a WOTC map and made it to the top 4 of a regional and was a few die rolls away from the top 2 where I would have played a squad I had already beaten.

As has been hashed/rehashed many times, the top end pieces that WOTC created aren't any different on power level as the top end pieces that are made by the v-set committee.
Bubba Fett
Posted: Monday, April 29, 2013 5:51:34 PM
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I haven't exactly seen a power creep, but i do see more v-set pieces being used. Most of the time i would say that its out of boredom for something new. I personally play them a lot mainly because they really help my mandos but that about it for me. I have yet to play with or against many of the pieces, but it doesn't seem to be that big of a problem to me. I can take an entirely WOTC senate commando squad and beat plenty of people with it, many of them playing v-set pieces. There are a few overpowered pieces, but that is no different than the few that WOTC produced. Not all the pieces in the sets can be perfectly balanced. I think the designers did a good job.
Galactic Funk
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 7:04:12 AM
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Here's a link to a thread theHutts created a few months ago which in his words is about quantifying powercreep. Also be sure to check out the post from Prime Clone on page 4 of that thread. A lot of good info in there.

http://www.bloomilk.com/forums/default.aspx?g=posts&t=11962
thereisnotry
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 7:28:41 AM
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Good responses by many people so far, so I won't rehash what they've said.

However, I was one of the designers of Kelborn, so I'll offer some input about him. From the very first conversations about "What should we do with V-Set 5?" we knew that we needed to give the Mandos some good help. Some kind of useful movement breaker or something, because they haven't been able to compete much at all up to this point. [Our other focus was on the Vong, but that's another story.] If you look at it, every faction has a piece or a few pieces which are "go-to" pieces for that faction.
--Rebels: Princess Leia (for a long time) and/or Luke RC. Oh, and Dodonna.
--Imperials: Thrawn/Mas, and now Pelleon.
--Republic: Doombot, along with several other combo options that are all very strong.
--Seps: Lancer, San, Whorm.
--NR: Ganner, Dodonna, Mara.
--Vong: Yammosk...but it was clear that they needed more.
--OR: Bastilla, Atton/Carth, and now Satele.
--Sith: At the time, just Revan and Atton, but we added Wyyrlok to increase their squad-building options.
--Mandos: ...um...Mandalore the Vindicated? Yes, he's good ("Triple Attack for 90dmg, baby!"), but he could never get into position to use his triple, so he was really gimped.

And so we intentionally set out to design a "go-to" piece for the Mandos. Not broken, but definitely under-costed and intentionally stacked with some useful Mando-specific tech. One of the problems with designing tech pieces is that they need to be cheap...and therefore they're fragile, and so they die easily. Either that, or the tech is tougher and survivable, which increases the cost and means that you can't fit much tech into your squad if you want to have viable damage output.

And so for Kelborn we basically said, "Let's start with the Mando Scout as a base" (read his Wookieepedia article to see why we did that)...and then we decided to make him Cunning rather than Opportunist, and then one of the designers had the (IMHO) brilliant idea of Resolnare, which would give the Mandos the movement-breaker that they so sorely lacked.

That was his base design...after that we experimented with various different options. We really wanted him to be able to move around with his "pod" of cloaked guys, without needing to rely on Mice for CE effectiveness...and that's where Relay Orders came from...but he also needed to benefit from CEs himself, and so we finally settled on giving him Coordinated Command, which was a great SA for Mandos, but unfortunately the only other piece with it (Cassus Fett) isn't usually effective, and so CoCo got on there too.

So is Kelborn undercosted? Yes. Is that accidental or is it a mistake? No and no.
Blah Blah Words
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 7:41:03 AM
Rank: Wookiee Elite Warrior
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Joined: 4/30/2013
Posts: 19
This argument is pointless, please allow me summarize this entire discussion.

Man #1: The game is getting unbalanced and some pieces are overpowered.
Man #2: If you think that piece is broken, then simply use this broken piece to break it.
Man #1: I'm not looking to break the game, I want things to be balanced.
Man #2: Okay, you're not listening. That piece is not good, because look at this broken piece. Do you see how great it is?
Man #1: Seriously, I was just saying the game is getting unbalanced.
Man #2: Unbalanced? I can beat that piece with this piece, look at how broken it is!
Man #1: Dude, I'm just saying all they do is make pieces more broken than the last.
Man #2: More broken? Ha, just look at this broken piece, it'll take care of that.

This argument is right up there with Gun Control on topics that simply will not go anywhere. Some of us want to play a fair game, but some pieces are so overpowered it ruins casual play. Some of you will not understand this because you play to win, which to me, is not playing for fun. But while I play for fun, it's hard to enjoy a game when there are pieces that can simply wipe out entire squads.
Darth_Reignir
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 7:42:02 AM
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Joined: 7/3/2010
Posts: 354
The argument I've heard against power creep is that if one piece has one obvious exploit, it becomes balanced.
That's such a bad argument. "Dude, just bring shooters in against Jaina Solo/Mace Windu/Darth Zanna, you'll be fine!

In what universe do you people play in where everyone knows what everyone else is playing before the match starts?

And why is it, that if I want to contend against the cheese that is V-Set, I have to equal or surpass the cheese that's being used against me? How is that fun in any way? It wasn't fun when WotC did it, we all acknowledged it. So why, instead of using the golden opportunity we had to correct it, did we decide to embrace it to the fullest extent?
Darth_Reignir
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 7:57:24 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 7/3/2010
Posts: 354
thereisnotry wrote:
Good responses by many people so far, so I won't rehash what they've said.

However, I was one of the designers of Kelborn, so I'll offer some input about him. From the very first conversations about "What should we do with V-Set 5?" we knew that we needed to give the Mandos some good help. Some kind of useful movement breaker or something, because they haven't been able to compete much at all up to this point. [Our other focus was on the Vong, but that's another story.] If you look at it, every faction has a piece or a few pieces which are "go-to" pieces for that faction.
--Rebels: Princess Leia (for a long time) and/or Luke RC. Oh, and Dodonna.
--Imperials: Thrawn/Mas, and now Pelleon.
--Republic: Doombot, along with several other combo options that are all very strong.
--Seps: Lancer, San, Whorm.
--NR: Ganner, Dodonna, Mara.
--Vong: Yammosk...but it was clear that they needed more.
--OR: Bastilla, Atton/Carth, and now Satele.
--Sith: At the time, just Revan and Atton, but we added Wyyrlok to increase their squad-building options.
--Mandos: ...um...Mandalore the Vindicated? Yes, he's good ("Triple Attack for 90dmg, baby!"), but he could never get into position to use his triple, so he was really gimped.

And so we intentionally set out to design a "go-to" piece for the Mandos. Not broken, but definitely under-costed and intentionally stacked with some useful Mando-specific tech. One of the problems with designing tech pieces is that they need to be cheap...and therefore they're fragile, and so they die easily. Either that, or the tech is tougher and survivable, which increases the cost and means that you can't fit much tech into your squad if you want to have viable damage output.

And so for Kelborn we basically said, "Let's start with the Mando Scout as a base" (read his Wookieepedia article to see why we did that)...and then we decided to make him Cunning rather than Opportunist, and then one of the designers had the (IMHO) brilliant idea of Resolnare, which would give the Mandos the movement-breaker that they so sorely lacked.

That was his base design...after that we experimented with various different options. We really wanted him to be able to move around with his "pod" of cloaked guys, without needing to rely on Mice for CE effectiveness...and that's where Relay Orders came from...but he also needed to benefit from CEs himself, and so we finally settled on giving him Coordinated Command, which was a great SA for Mandos, but unfortunately the only other piece with it (Cassus Fett) isn't usually effective, and so CoCo got on there too.

So is Kelborn undercosted? Yes. Is that accidental or is it a mistake? No and no.


If that doesn't validate everyone's argument against the V-Set, then I don't know what does.
Intentionally undercosted, overpowered, and frustrating. Don't worry about trying to play smart or tactically, because now we've given you one big ol' Cheese stick to do all the thinking for you.

Brinksmanship at its finest.
Echo24
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 8:00:06 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 9/30/2008
Posts: 1,288
Blah Blah Words wrote:
This argument is pointless, please allow me summarize this entire discussion.

Man #1: The game is getting unbalanced and some pieces are overpowered.
Man #2: If you think that piece is broken, then simply use this broken piece to break it.
Man #1: I'm not looking to break the game, I want things to be balanced.
Man #2: Okay, you're not listening. That piece is not good, because look at this broken piece. Do you see how great it is?
Man #1: Seriously, I was just saying the game is getting unbalanced.
Man #2: Unbalanced? I can beat that piece with this piece, look at how broken it is!
Man #1: Dude, I'm just saying all they do is make pieces more broken than the last.
Man #2: More broken? Ha, just look at this broken piece, it'll take care of that.


So your "summary" has one of the two parties as the clear idiot, being hardheaded and belligerent while the other party is the poor victim? And you create a new account specifically to make this post? I won't begin to list the huge number of things that make this post just trolling and not adding anything worthwhile to the discussion. If you think the conversation is "pointless", then don't get involved.

Power creep exists, and is a part of every game of those type (basically, games with regular expansions). That's how the game stays interesting. There will always be a few things that are the best, but if the same things become the best and then stay the best forever, the game gets really, really boring. The only way to keep it from getting boring is to either make counters to the best things or make new best things (or do both).

Power creep exists in every single collectible game (which is what this is, even without new product). It's a good thing.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 8:02:05 AM
Rank: Moderator
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Joined: 5/26/2009
Posts: 8,428
Blah Blah Words wrote:
But while I play for fun, it's hard to enjoy a game when there are pieces that can simply wipe out entire squads.


It's WotC's fault.

Here's what WotC left us (approximately):

30 Power pieces
100 Competitive pieces
250 Situational pieces
500 Horrible pieces

A casual player doesn't own all of the power pieces, so a casual game includes a mix of all of the levels. A competitive game consists of only the Power pieces and the Competitive pieces. (And occasionally a Situational piece... depending on the ahem - situation.)


Vsets come along and add (approximately):

100 Power pieces
100 Competitive pieces
100 Situational pieces
50 Horrible pieces

The result? Way more options at the upper level. And all of those options will crush the weaker pieces. If you want balance, don't complain about the strong pieces - just ignore the weak pieces. If you play with just the Vsets (and ignore the WotC pieces), that's probably one of the easiest ways to give balance to the game without having to learn all the nuances of the meta.
Echo24
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 8:04:46 AM
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Joined: 9/30/2008
Posts: 1,288
Darth_Reignir wrote:
The argument I've heard against power creep is that if one piece has one obvious exploit, it becomes balanced.
That's such a bad argument. "Dude, just bring shooters in against Jaina Solo/Mace Windu/Darth Zanna, you'll be fine!

In what universe do you people play in where everyone knows what everyone else is playing before the match starts?

And why is it, that if I want to contend against the cheese that is V-Set, I have to equal or surpass the cheese that's being used against me? How is that fun in any way? It wasn't fun when WotC did it, we all acknowledged it. So why, instead of using the golden opportunity we had to correct it, did we decide to embrace it to the fullest extent?


It was absolutely fun when WotC did it, it kept the game fresh. I don't know who the "we" is that acknowledged anything, but don't speak for everyone.

If you think you can make a game with over 1000 pieces that is well balanced and still fun, with 120+ new pieces coming out every year, I'm truly and genuinely interested. I'll volunteer right here and now to be a playtester for that game. I'm looking forward to seeing your ideas.
Echo24
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 8:08:59 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 9/30/2008
Posts: 1,288
FlyingArrow wrote:
Blah Blah Words wrote:
But while I play for fun, it's hard to enjoy a game when there are pieces that can simply wipe out entire squads.


It's WotC's fault.

Here's what WotC left us (approximately):

30 Power pieces
100 Competitive pieces
250 Situational pieces
500 Horrible pieces

A casual player doesn't own all of the power pieces, so a casual game includes a mix of all of the levels. A competitive game consists of only the Power pieces and the Competitive pieces. (And occasionally a Situational piece... depending on the ahem - situation.)


Vsets come along and add (approximately):

100 Power pieces
100 Competitive pieces
100 Situational pieces
50 Horrible pieces

The result? Way more options at the upper level. And all of those options will crush the weaker pieces. If you want balance, don't complain about the strong pieces - just ignore the weak pieces. If you play with just the Vsets (and ignore the WotC pieces), that's probably one of the easiest ways to give balance to the game without having to learn all the nuances of the meta.


Man, I'll be honest; when someone "gets it", it really makes all the complaining worth weathering. I get discouraged by criticism as much as anybody else (sometimes more, depending on my mood). Posts like these make me smile and be happy to be able to contribute to a great game. Thanks, FlyingArrow. Smile
Darth_Reignir
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 8:09:40 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/3/2010
Posts: 354
Echo24 wrote:
Darth_Reignir wrote:
The argument I've heard against power creep is that if one piece has one obvious exploit, it becomes balanced.
That's such a bad argument. "Dude, just bring shooters in against Jaina Solo/Mace Windu/Darth Zanna, you'll be fine!

In what universe do you people play in where everyone knows what everyone else is playing before the match starts?

And why is it, that if I want to contend against the cheese that is V-Set, I have to equal or surpass the cheese that's being used against me? How is that fun in any way? It wasn't fun when WotC did it, we all acknowledged it. So why, instead of using the golden opportunity we had to correct it, did we decide to embrace it to the fullest extent?


It was absolutely fun when WotC did it, it kept the game fresh. I don't know who the "we" is that acknowledged anything, but don't speak for everyone.

If you think you can make a game with over 1000 pieces that is well balanced and still fun, with 120+ new pieces coming out every year, I'm truly and genuinely interested. I'll volunteer right here and now to be a playtester for that game. I'm looking forward to seeing your ideas.


Amazing. Any other time anyone attempts to defend the power creep of the V-Set, the argument's been, "Well, WotC did it and broke the game way more!"

Now suddenly you V-Set fans are all for breaking the game and idolize what WotC did?

No one has claimed to have all the answers, so take your anger elsewhere. What we're wanting is acknowledgement that there is a fundamental flaw with where the V-Set has taken the game, and steps to fixing it, rather than a belligerent (your word) and zealous defense of it.
Darth_Reignir
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 8:10:58 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/3/2010
Posts: 354
Echo24 wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:
Blah Blah Words wrote:
But while I play for fun, it's hard to enjoy a game when there are pieces that can simply wipe out entire squads.


It's WotC's fault.

Here's what WotC left us (approximately):

30 Power pieces
100 Competitive pieces
250 Situational pieces
500 Horrible pieces

A casual player doesn't own all of the power pieces, so a casual game includes a mix of all of the levels. A competitive game consists of only the Power pieces and the Competitive pieces. (And occasionally a Situational piece... depending on the ahem - situation.)


Vsets come along and add (approximately):

100 Power pieces
100 Competitive pieces
100 Situational pieces
50 Horrible pieces

The result? Way more options at the upper level. And all of those options will crush the weaker pieces. If you want balance, don't complain about the strong pieces - just ignore the weak pieces. If you play with just the Vsets (and ignore the WotC pieces), that's probably one of the easiest ways to give balance to the game without having to learn all the nuances of the meta.


Man, I'll be honest; when someone "gets it", it really makes all the complaining worth weathering. I get discouraged by criticism as much as anybody else (sometimes more, depending on my mood). Posts like these make me smile and be happy to be able to contribute to a great game. Thanks, FlyingArrow. Smile


So you are encouraged by someone blaming WotC in one post, making them the negative.
Then you quote me and say WotC did the right thing??

Zealousy without logic has never ceased to amaze me.
Blah Blah Words
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 8:11:39 AM
Rank: Wookiee Elite Warrior
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/30/2013
Posts: 19
Echo24 wrote:


Power creep exists... It's a good thing.


Okay I just wanted to summarize your post. Good troll.

Yet, if you had read my post all the way through instead of quoting one specific part part of my argument you would have found that I already knew you'd say that, and that you only validated my argument. Cheers!
Echo24
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 8:15:50 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 9/30/2008
Posts: 1,288
Darth_Reignir wrote:
Echo24 wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:
Blah Blah Words wrote:
But while I play for fun, it's hard to enjoy a game when there are pieces that can simply wipe out entire squads.


It's WotC's fault.

Here's what WotC left us (approximately):

30 Power pieces
100 Competitive pieces
250 Situational pieces
500 Horrible pieces

A casual player doesn't own all of the power pieces, so a casual game includes a mix of all of the levels. A competitive game consists of only the Power pieces and the Competitive pieces. (And occasionally a Situational piece... depending on the ahem - situation.)


Vsets come along and add (approximately):

100 Power pieces
100 Competitive pieces
100 Situational pieces
50 Horrible pieces

The result? Way more options at the upper level. And all of those options will crush the weaker pieces. If you want balance, don't complain about the strong pieces - just ignore the weak pieces. If you play with just the Vsets (and ignore the WotC pieces), that's probably one of the easiest ways to give balance to the game without having to learn all the nuances of the meta.


Man, I'll be honest; when someone "gets it", it really makes all the complaining worth weathering. I get discouraged by criticism as much as anybody else (sometimes more, depending on my mood). Posts like these make me smile and be happy to be able to contribute to a great game. Thanks, FlyingArrow. Smile


So you are encouraged by someone blaming WotC in one post, making them the negative.
Then you quote me and say WotC did the right thing??

Zealousy without logic has never ceased to amaze me.


Actually, if I had to complain about WotC, I would complain that they didn't add high power pieces enough! That's why sets like Dark Times kinda sucked; they didn't add much to the game, because most of the pieces were pretty low powered. WotC did the right thing when they used power creep well; they did the wrong thing when they made so many horrible pieces (what FA pointed out).
FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 8:16:41 AM
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member , Moderator

Joined: 5/26/2009
Posts: 8,428
Blah Blah Words wrote:
Echo24 wrote:


Power creep exists... It's a good thing.


Okay I just wanted to summarize your post. Good troll.

Yet, if you had read my post all the way through instead of quoting one specific part part of my argument you would have found that I already knew you'd say that, and that you only validated my argument. Cheers!


Power creep of some sort is necessary - otherwise new pieces would never be played. Ideally, it's as slow as possible. The number of WotC pieces that are still played regularly in competitive games, and the number of viable squad builds at the competitive tables are both testament that the power creep of the Vsets is pretty slow.
Blah Blah Words
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 8:20:19 AM
Rank: Wookiee Elite Warrior
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/30/2013
Posts: 19
FlyingArrow wrote:


It's WotC's fault.

Here's what WotC left us (approximately):

30 Power pieces

Vsets come along and add (approximately):

100 Power pieces

The result? ...options will crush the...balance, don't complain about the strong pieces - just ignore the...WotC pieces..that's...balance


I took out all the filler for those with TL;DR. 30 Power Pieces < 100 Power Pieces. But V-Set is balanced. LOL
Darth_Reignir
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 8:21:04 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/3/2010
Posts: 354
Okay, so just so I am clear on this, what you're saying is that smart, efficient, and well thought-out teams aren't what make the game fun or playable, but increased stats that render old pieces worthless, that makes the game fun. Interesting.
Echo24
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 8:21:35 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 9/30/2008
Posts: 1,288
FlyingArrow wrote:
Blah Blah Words wrote:
Echo24 wrote:


Power creep exists... It's a good thing.


Okay I just wanted to summarize your post. Good troll.

Yet, if you had read my post all the way through instead of quoting one specific part part of my argument you would have found that I already knew you'd say that, and that you only validated my argument. Cheers!


Power creep of some sort is necessary - otherwise new pieces would never be played. Ideally, it's as slow as possible. The number of WotC pieces that are still played regularly in competitive games, and the number of viable squad builds at the competitive tables are both testament that the power creep of the Vsets is pretty slow.


To a certain extent! But power creep can definitely be too slow, also. Masters of the Force is a set that is a good example of this; it added the amazing Ganner Rhysode, undeniably a top tier piece. But then it added nothing else really good, just a bunch of horrible pieces. If the set had, say, 4 or 5 more top tier pieces, and then a bunch of situational or competitive pieces, and much fewer horrible pieces it would have been a much better set!

It's all about balance. We want to advance the game a certain amount with each set, such that the meta shifts and stays fresh and interesting, but don't want to advance it SO much that we destroy all the old pieces. WotC realistically just had too much of a gap between the best pieces in one of their sets and the worst pieces.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 8:27:49 AM
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member , Moderator

Joined: 5/26/2009
Posts: 8,428
Blah Blah Words wrote:

I took out all the filler for those with TL;DR. 30 Power Pieces < 100 Power Pieces. But V-Set is balanced. LOL


Absolutely. You want there to be parity. When there are only a few power pieces - they dominate and the game is unbalanced. When there are many 'power' pieces, none of them dominate and there is balance. That's what the game is like now. Of course, with so many 'power' pieces it makes it more obvious how weak WotC made the vast majority of their pieces. But the discrepancy in power was already there between the WotC power pieces and the WotC weak pieces.
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