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I like playing the Vong a lot, and I think that the inclusion of pieces in this last V-set got them to a good positionj to be top tier. They got a good movement breaker in the subaltern and a good way to boost defense in Nei Rin. I think the idea of introducing a Dovin Basal piece would be very interesting.In addition to the Emplacement SA, I'd probably give it an ability that makes it so when Dovin Basal activates, it can pull one piece anywhere on the map 6 squares towards it. That way you get a really cool movement breaker of 2 sorts. One way pulls your opponents closer or you you do it the other way and pull your own piece closer.
Another good idea for what the vong could really use right now is a commander/SA that would grant Vong allies melee reach 2. This would synergize very well with Nei Rin, as your vong could still get melee attacks and still get the defense boost. Not to mention it would really help them survive against Klat Assassin death shots with their SD 20.
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Mando wrote:I like playing the Vong a lot, and I think that the inclusion of pieces in this last V-set got them to a good positionj to be top tier. They got a good movement breaker in the subaltern and a good way to boost defense in Nei Rin. I think the idea of introducing a Dovin Basal piece would be very interesting.In addition to the Emplacement SA, I'd probably give it an ability that makes it so when Dovin Basal activates, it can pull one piece anywhere on the map 6 squares towards it. That way you get a really cool movement breaker of 2 sorts. One way pulls your opponents closer or you you do it the other way and pull your own piece closer.
Another good idea for what the vong could really use right now is a commander/SA that would grant Vong allies melee reach 2. This would synergize very well with Nei Rin, as your vong could still get melee attacks and still get the defense boost. Not to mention it would really help them survive against Klat Assassin death shots with their SD 20. +1
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Mando wrote:I like playing the Vong a lot, and I think that the inclusion of pieces in this last V-set got them to a good positionj to be top tier. They got a good movement breaker in the subaltern and a good way to boost defense in Nei Rin. I think the idea of introducing a Dovin Basal piece would be very interesting.In addition to the Emplacement SA, I'd probably give it an ability that makes it so when Dovin Basal activates, it can pull one piece anywhere on the map 6 squares towards it. That way you get a really cool movement breaker of 2 sorts. One way pulls your opponents closer or you you do it the other way and pull your own piece closer.
Another good idea for what the vong could really use right now is a commander/SA that would grant Vong allies melee reach 2. This would synergize very well with Nei Rin, as your vong could still get melee attacks and still get the defense boost. Not to mention it would really help them survive against Klat Assassin death shots with their SD 20. correct me if I am wrong but if you kill a piece on your turn with melee reach 2 you would still be subject to the SD of the klat assassin since you are considered adjacent right? and the other problem with being able to pull pieces around the map and stuff is the Yammosk coordinator, it is really hard to balance special abilities and commander effects in the vong because in any given game you could get swap, evade + mobile, extra attacks, etc. if you were able to move your opponents pieces from anywhere on the map then swap a charging assault piece it would get insane quickly.
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Deaths_Baine wrote:Mando wrote:I like playing the Vong a lot, and I think that the inclusion of pieces in this last V-set got them to a good positionj to be top tier. They got a good movement breaker in the subaltern and a good way to boost defense in Nei Rin. I think the idea of introducing a Dovin Basal piece would be very interesting.In addition to the Emplacement SA, I'd probably give it an ability that makes it so when Dovin Basal activates, it can pull one piece anywhere on the map 6 squares towards it. That way you get a really cool movement breaker of 2 sorts. One way pulls your opponents closer or you you do it the other way and pull your own piece closer.
Another good idea for what the vong could really use right now is a commander/SA that would grant Vong allies melee reach 2. This would synergize very well with Nei Rin, as your vong could still get melee attacks and still get the defense boost. Not to mention it would really help them survive against Klat Assassin death shots with their SD 20. correct me if I am wrong but if you kill a piece on your turn with melee reach 2 you would still be subject to the SD of the klat assassin since you are considered adjacent right? and the other problem with being able to pull pieces around the map and stuff is the Yammosk coordinator, it is really hard to balance special abilities and commander effects in the vong because in any given game you could get swap, evade + mobile, extra attacks, etc. if you were able to move your opponents pieces from anywhere on the map then swap a charging assault piece it would get insane quickly. You are correct that self destruct damage still effects you when attacking from 2 away with a melee reach 2 character. As for the Dovan Basal idea, I like it for flavor but IF it ever gets made I hope it would be extensively thought out and play tested. If it happens I just want it to be done right. I'm not sure how big a factor the Yammosk would be with it though. Sure you could have a particular matchup that could get crazy but if you think about it in terms of a tournament setting chances are its not going to be a significant issue over the course of muliple games throughout the course of said tourney.
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Galactic Funk wrote:Deaths_Baine wrote:Mando wrote:I like playing the Vong a lot, and I think that the inclusion of pieces in this last V-set got them to a good positionj to be top tier. They got a good movement breaker in the subaltern and a good way to boost defense in Nei Rin. I think the idea of introducing a Dovin Basal piece would be very interesting.In addition to the Emplacement SA, I'd probably give it an ability that makes it so when Dovin Basal activates, it can pull one piece anywhere on the map 6 squares towards it. That way you get a really cool movement breaker of 2 sorts. One way pulls your opponents closer or you you do it the other way and pull your own piece closer.
Another good idea for what the vong could really use right now is a commander/SA that would grant Vong allies melee reach 2. This would synergize very well with Nei Rin, as your vong could still get melee attacks and still get the defense boost. Not to mention it would really help them survive against Klat Assassin death shots with their SD 20. correct me if I am wrong but if you kill a piece on your turn with melee reach 2 you would still be subject to the SD of the klat assassin since you are considered adjacent right? and the other problem with being able to pull pieces around the map and stuff is the Yammosk coordinator, it is really hard to balance special abilities and commander effects in the vong because in any given game you could get swap, evade + mobile, extra attacks, etc. if you were able to move your opponents pieces from anywhere on the map then swap a charging assault piece it would get insane quickly. You are correct that self destruct damage still effects you when attacking from 2 away with a melee reach 2 character. As for the Dovan Basal idea, I like it for flavor but IF it ever gets made I hope it would be extensively thought out and play tested. If it happens I just want it to be done right. I'm not sure how big a factor the Yammosk would be with it though. Sure you could have a particular matchup that could get crazy but if you think about it in terms of a tournament setting chances are its not going to be a significant issue over the course of muliple games throughout the course of said tourney. Not to sure, a lot of people run thrawn and panaka for swap and that is where i would begin seeing if it is overpowered, then again that is what play testing is for.
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Well, of course it'd be powerful if the Vong's Yammosk let them abuse it too. Swap is really powerful in Republic and Imperials as it is. It's more a symptom of the swap CE than the Yammosk SA, honestly.
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I think a vong shooter with ritual scarring would be perfect. Give him 20 damage, and he could never been as devastating as jaq or Rex, because he would get cunning, and poison, and that would be it, unless you put warmaster in , but again it's only momentum. Jaq puts out 60 almost all the time, if not more. If you have a vong shooter with double and greater mobile and ritual scarring and base 20 damage, the MOST they could
Do is 100 with cunning (situational) + poison (save 11) + momentum (costs 63 points to get). I think it would be a perfect character for vong.
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I have read all the arguments... And I will stand by m observation.
1. Vong abilitie are coming out way to fast, and way to much... for example..
-Master Shaper, great ability, and usually very easy to remember who has it... BUT you DO have keep track of it.
-Supreme Overlord Shimra's ce... Not a popular piece... But if he did... You would have to keep track of how man have died so you know their attack bonus
-Voxn with stunnig Screech... Can anyone tell me honestly what it does without looking?
-The War Cordinator... Another fairly easy piece to grasp..But the slight difference in it Extending SA ONLY to YV characters while extending of ALL characters is a slight inconvenience.
-Scarfication is cool and thematic... But try adding up that bonus with all the other options in under 10seconds before attacking... And then the CE that is tossed in on Jakan... Is only available once per round... Another thing to keep track of
-Nos Choka increases their speed by 2 basically
-How many people know the wording/limtations of Droid Fanaticsm?
-Prefect Dea Gara has so much jumbled stuff that its just crazy
-Created Puppet Master.... Cool ability.. But necessary?
-Coral Implants... Another thing to keep track of
-Plasma Eel... Again, why?
-Magma Pebble.. now I have to keep track if the enemy is on fire?
-Bo'tous Spore.... Another ability I doubt many people know without reading, and wil slow a game down.
-The Domain Shai gives CF to followers while ALSO granting Double to a Specific YV Group
- Neural Mapping... Great Ability... That again...Slows the game down.. I.E. .. Cad Bane is nw YV, so now he gains,Scarificaton, SHaper, Maybe Cunning, Poison also... (I know not all is reasonable but itsthere now.
- Nei Rin is (and I'm sorry to say this) a complicated piece.. Shaper... Rapport... Vonduun Crab Shaper... Vong Heritage....AND his CE.... Good luck to anyone playing him and not asking for his card MULTIPLE times.
-Supreme Overlord Quorreal... Loyal Followers, again, guess this one without looking it up, Gotta Keep track of that also while trying to remember his CE... And knowing whether or not its active..
I give the designers props for getting this faction off the ground... But at this rate, we will need to increase the game length to 1 hour and 15 minutes! Just to account for people asking about the abilities and trying t remember everything they get!
Its slow play now..And I feel the more we try to build them to tier 1,the slower the games will be(assuming more thematic abilities are created to do this)
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@shmi
I don't know how long it took you wright this stuff down, but I got a head ache just reading it. I'm with you on that.
Too convoluted.
I don't say it lightly. This calls for a reboot.
The mandos are working and they are very thematic because we had something to work with to begin with (even thought a ce that gives all mandos flight still eludes us, NO idea why...).
I enjoyed reading up on this subject; I find some of the insights very thought provoking.
Cheers
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Hmm, ok, I'm going to have to withdraw my support. After re-reading the original post, I don't think I really agreed fully in the first place; I agree that Vong have been getting a little too complex (both in types of abilities, number of abilities, and complex combinations of characters and abilities), but only a little. I don't think any real missteps have been taken, but I do think we need to not keep adding more and more complex stuff and instead just add some good simple stuff. It now appears that your point of view is that Vong are WAY too complex and have been that way since DotF, which I think is ridiculous. Seriously, you have a problem with practically EVERY Vong ability released in the V-sets (I didn't check if you actually posted about every single one, but by skimming the list I think you complained about almost every one if not every single one). You just took your point to an extreme level of absurdity, and re-reading your original post in that context, I think you're getting way too worked up about this.
Vong can be (with the right combination of characters) slightly more complex than some other factions. You are overreacting to this by a very large amount. I think we need to acknowledge that there is that difference in complexity and subtly adjust design so that we don't just make it worse; I don't think that there is some huge difference in complexity where if you're playing Mandos or Rebels or Republic or NR or OR or Sith or Seps or Imperials that the game is easy to understand and you don't have to read any cards multiple times but if you play Vong there are just a whole ton of weird abilities that you have to keep track of and remember. It's just not true. This game can be complex no matter which faction you play; some might be a little more complex than others, but not to any large degree.
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shmi15 wrote:I have read all the arguments... And I will stand by m observation.
1. Vong abilitie are coming out way to fast, and way to much... for example..
-Master Shaper, great ability, and usually very easy to remember who has it... BUT you DO have keep track of it.
-Supreme Overlord Shimra's ce... Not a popular piece... But if he did... You would have to keep track of how man have died so you know their attack bonus
-Voxn with stunnig Screech... Can anyone tell me honestly what it does without looking?
-The War Cordinator... Another fairly easy piece to grasp..But the slight difference in it Extending SA ONLY to YV characters while extending of ALL characters is a slight inconvenience.
-Scarfication is cool and thematic... But try adding up that bonus with all the other options in under 10seconds before attacking... And then the CE that is tossed in on Jakan... Is only available once per round... Another thing to keep track of
-Nos Choka increases their speed by 2 basically
-How many people know the wording/limtations of Droid Fanaticsm?
-Prefect Dea Gara has so much jumbled stuff that its just crazy
-Created Puppet Master.... Cool ability.. But necessary?
-Coral Implants... Another thing to keep track of
-Plasma Eel... Again, why?
-Magma Pebble.. now I have to keep track if the enemy is on fire?
-Bo'tous Spore.... Another ability I doubt many people know without reading, and wil slow a game down.
-The Domain Shai gives CF to followers while ALSO granting Double to a Specific YV Group
- Neural Mapping... Great Ability... That again...Slows the game down.. I.E. .. Cad Bane is nw YV, so now he gains,Scarificaton, SHaper, Maybe Cunning, Poison also... (I know not all is reasonable but itsthere now.
- Nei Rin is (and I'm sorry to say this) a complicated piece.. Shaper... Rapport... Vonduun Crab Shaper... Vong Heritage....AND his CE.... Good luck to anyone playing him and not asking for his card MULTIPLE times.
-Supreme Overlord Quorreal... Loyal Followers, again, guess this one without looking it up, Gotta Keep track of that also while trying to remember his CE... And knowing whether or not its active..
I give the designers props for getting this faction off the ground... But at this rate, we will need to increase the game length to 1 hour and 15 minutes! Just to account for people asking about the abilities and trying t remember everything they get!
Its slow play now..And I feel the more we try to build them to tier 1,the slower the games will be(assuming more thematic abilities are created to do this)
This makes no sense. Why are you complaining about the VONG, and not the dozen other things on other figures. Are you complaining about the stacking, or what. Because of all the stuff you listed, does not even make the top 10 list of the complicated stuff that the Vset designers have made. Most of what you have listed is based on stuff already made. Magma Pebble based off of Force Corruption. Shimra's CE is a combo of two Vader's CEs. Stunning Screech is a variation of Jedi Mind Trick (which works a lot like some of the later Jedi Mind Tricks). Again, Scarification is a WOTC ability. Puppet Master is a stronger version of Dominate. Plasma Eels, because people would not like them getting Missiles? And you are criticizing CE's that grant abilities? That's most of the CEs in the game. There is some valid criticism to be had about complicated abilities. But to focus on just the Vong is flat out hypocritical. Force Abilities alone are more complicated than your listed complaints. No one can remember all abilities at all times, even the rules gurus. But if you have to keep rereading cards, than you might not be ready for tournaments. Yes, there is a lot to remember, because there can be a lot that stacks. But how is this any different than any other CE heavy squad?
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Maybe I said it wrong... I'm not hating on the abilities per say. I'm disapproving of the "over" variety of complex scenario that can "stall" a game. I'm saying I don't want to have to remember that the 3 Jedi Hunters I have, could have different attacks than what they are from the card, and from each other. (Shaper,Master Shaper, Scarification,Cunning)
Its just way to much probable variety in attack/damage numbers, that it "slows" the game down... Which I am not a fan of.
So again... Not hating on the abilities (all of them atleast) just the time they take away from the ACTUAL game being played.
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shmi15 wrote:Maybe I said it wrong... I'm not hating on the abilities per say. I'm disapproving of the "over" variety of complex scenario that can "stall" a game. I'm saying I don't want to have to remember that the 3 Jedi Hunters I have, could have different attacks than what they are from the card, and from each other. (Shaper,Master Shaper, Scarification,Cunning)
Its just way to much probable variety in attack/damage numbers, that it "slows" the game down... Which I am not a fan of.
So again... Not hating on the abilities (all of them atleast) just the time they take away from the ACTUAL game being played. Again, how is this any different than any other CE heavy squad? Especially with the Squad abilities. There is a lot of things that can stack on the Vong. But that can happen in any other squad. We try to keep the bookeeping down, but it is inevitable in some cases. We've had such abilities since Clone Strike, and I personally would love to see Dark Master and Dark Inspiration used more.
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Sithborg wrote:shmi15 wrote:Maybe I said it wrong... I'm not hating on the abilities per say. I'm disapproving of the "over" variety of complex scenario that can "stall" a game. I'm saying I don't want to have to remember that the 3 Jedi Hunters I have, could have different attacks than what they are from the card, and from each other. (Shaper,Master Shaper, Scarification,Cunning)
Its just way to much probable variety in attack/damage numbers, that it "slows" the game down... Which I am not a fan of.
So again... Not hating on the abilities (all of them atleast) just the time they take away from the ACTUAL game being played. Again, how is this any different than any other CE heavy squad? Especially with the Squad abilities. There is a lot of things that can stack on the Vong. But that can happen in any other squad. We try to keep the bookeeping down, but it is inevitable in some cases. We've had such abilities since Clone Strike, and I personally would love to see Dark Master and Dark Inspiration used more. well considering you can use 3 pieces to bring in 60 points of reserves in a nom bomb squad then have to keep track of which ones you brought in with Quorreal because they have agressive negotiations and then which one you gave stealth to with nom, then try to remember out of those 40 vong reinforcements (20 will be lobot) which ones were in the base squad and which ones were brought in, that is a lot to remember/mark down. not that I personally have a huge problem with it but i do see to a extent what he is saying. I personally feel he was just trying to bring the current situation to light, the designers talk about trying to keep it simple and not make a lot of new SA's for new players and things, but this faction has gotten ALOT of new abilities that require some work to understand and play. *again not that I have a huge problem with it, just was trying to put his idea into a different light i guess, personally i like where the vong are currently and feel like they just need a few pieces to be top tier*
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PrimeClone wrote:
The mandos are working and they are very thematic because we had something to work with to begin with (even thought a ce that gives all mandos flight still eludes us, NO idea why...).
Apparently, you don't think much of the designers' abilities if you expect them to put that out.
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Deaths_Baine wrote:Sithborg wrote:shmi15 wrote:Maybe I said it wrong... I'm not hating on the abilities per say. I'm disapproving of the "over" variety of complex scenario that can "stall" a game. I'm saying I don't want to have to remember that the 3 Jedi Hunters I have, could have different attacks than what they are from the card, and from each other. (Shaper,Master Shaper, Scarification,Cunning)
Its just way to much probable variety in attack/damage numbers, that it "slows" the game down... Which I am not a fan of.
So again... Not hating on the abilities (all of them atleast) just the time they take away from the ACTUAL game being played. Again, how is this any different than any other CE heavy squad? Especially with the Squad abilities. There is a lot of things that can stack on the Vong. But that can happen in any other squad. We try to keep the bookeeping down, but it is inevitable in some cases. We've had such abilities since Clone Strike, and I personally would love to see Dark Master and Dark Inspiration used more. well considering you can use 3 pieces to bring in 60 points of reserves in a nom bomb squad then have to keep track of which ones you brought in with Quorreal because they have agressive negotiations and then which one you gave stealth to with nom, then try to remember out of those 40 vong reinforcements (20 will be lobot) which ones were in the base squad and which ones were brought in, that is a lot to remember/mark down. not that I personally have a huge problem with it but i do see to a extent what he is saying. I personally feel he was just trying to bring the current situation to light, the designers talk about trying to keep it simple and not make a lot of new SA's for new players and things, but this faction has gotten ALOT of new abilities that require some work to understand and play. *again not that I have a huge problem with it, just was trying to put his idea into a different light i guess, personally i like where the vong are currently and feel like they just need a few pieces to be top tier* Again, how is this different than keeping track of which mice/uggies you brought in with Lobot? Or which Rakghoul still counts for points? There is a valid point about complexity, but he is so far off base, that it completely negates his arguement.
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@ Sithborg
So my point was SA.. Not CE. I know I listed some CE, and I apologize for that confusion.. But maybe you can help me out with this
Is there any other faction that has received this many SA combos to keep track of? I have counted 15 new VONG SPECIFIC abilities since the v sets?
I'm not complaining about the abilities by themselves... Its the compilation and variety and constant asking and reasking during gameplay...
I mean I have played many games against and withVong... And they all take longer than any other game against any other faction...
Which takes me back to my original concern.. If MORE abilities are created for the Vong that are VONG specific, It will surely make the game VONG games last longer.....
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Sithborg wrote:Deaths_Baine wrote:Sithborg wrote:shmi15 wrote:Maybe I said it wrong... I'm not hating on the abilities per say. I'm disapproving of the "over" variety of complex scenario that can "stall" a game. I'm saying I don't want to have to remember that the 3 Jedi Hunters I have, could have different attacks than what they are from the card, and from each other. (Shaper,Master Shaper, Scarification,Cunning)
Its just way to much probable variety in attack/damage numbers, that it "slows" the game down... Which I am not a fan of.
So again... Not hating on the abilities (all of them atleast) just the time they take away from the ACTUAL game being played. Again, how is this any different than any other CE heavy squad? Especially with the Squad abilities. There is a lot of things that can stack on the Vong. But that can happen in any other squad. We try to keep the bookeeping down, but it is inevitable in some cases. We've had such abilities since Clone Strike, and I personally would love to see Dark Master and Dark Inspiration used more. well considering you can use 3 pieces to bring in 60 points of reserves in a nom bomb squad then have to keep track of which ones you brought in with Quorreal because they have agressive negotiations and then which one you gave stealth to with nom, then try to remember out of those 40 vong reinforcements (20 will be lobot) which ones were in the base squad and which ones were brought in, that is a lot to remember/mark down. not that I personally have a huge problem with it but i do see to a extent what he is saying. I personally feel he was just trying to bring the current situation to light, the designers talk about trying to keep it simple and not make a lot of new SA's for new players and things, but this faction has gotten ALOT of new abilities that require some work to understand and play. *again not that I have a huge problem with it, just was trying to put his idea into a different light i guess, personally i like where the vong are currently and feel like they just need a few pieces to be top tier* Again, how is this different than keeping track of which mice/uggies you brought in with Lobot? Or which Rakghoul still counts for points? There is a valid point about complexity, but he is so far off base, that it completely negates his arguement. because the mice and uggies you bring in with lobot dont come in with special abilities.... like the ones with quorreal do. so they dont have to be as seperated as the others. and the sheer amount of what you bring into that vong squad is enough to make 2 players go crazy. 20 points of reserves vs 60 points 20 of which gain special abilties is a huge difference.
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Yes you do. Some of your Mice/Uggies will cost points when defeated, some won't. Trust me, people do build with Mice/Uggies in their base squad.
You are adding, at most, one more layer of bookeeping. If such issues are difficult, then you should not be playing those types of pieces. If you do not have an easy way to keep track, then the issue is with the player, not designers.
Again, there are valid complaints. Quoreal is one, sure. But imo, extremely minor, when compared to a lot others. How many people are having issues with Caedus/Malgus?
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Sithborg wrote:Yes you do. Some of your Mice/Uggies will cost points when defeated, some won't. Trust me, people do build with Mice/Uggies in their base squad.
You are adding, at most, one more layer of bookeeping. If such issues are difficult, then you should not be playing those types of pieces. If you do not have an easy way to keep track, then the issue is with the player, not designer. i understand that. the main difference is the fact that the vong reinforcements will have special abilities whereas the ughs and mice have no abilities other then what they have on their card. Now to your other point it is not the fact that just the person using them has to know what it all is, the person the opponent playing has to also know what is going on. I never blamed the designers personally i don't care and feel like the vong are fine and not hard to understand, just wanted to help Shmi make his point. no denying that the fact that there are 60 points of reserves, all different, some with special abilities will slow down the game. that was the point. Not necessarily a problem, i think he just wanted to shed light on it so that people would be aware of it so that maybe it wont get worse....
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