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And I would have likely beaten it, if Spry hadn't ousted me in the semi's. Double Lancer has an extremely good matchup against an all melee squad.
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it was a well played and designed squad that had good matchups against Skybuck which was probably the best squad out there at the time because it dealt with Solo charge well.
I don't think it (JBMs, bastilla) would have troubled a good Solo charge so much because Han + mara could've picked off fodder until doors became a real problem. Once mara goes down (not without taking a couple of JBMS first) then anakin really makes a mess of the close nit melee group and Ganner/han finishes. ABM really takes very little away form Solo charge also so bastilla only threatens with a dmg boost.
The squad might still be useful, but at least one of those JBMs needs to be replaced with Jaq.
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fingersandteeth wrote:The squad might still be useful, but at least one of those JBMs needs to be replaced with Jaq. Hm. Replace two with two Jaqs. That would be a cool squad.
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jaq is more expensive than a JBM. That's why it's "at least one".
for clarity.
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I'm clearly not keeping up with this very well, but let's look at this year's GenCon winner. --Movin Mandos 2014 Gencon Champion--58 Mandalore the Vindicated 28 Kelborn 24 Mandalorian Tactician 23 Mandalorian Captain 38 Mandalorian Scout x2 11 Death Watch Saboteur 12 Mandalorian Demolitionist x2 6 Mouse Droid x2 (200pts. 11 activations) http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/142941/movin-mandos-2014-gencon-championSquadbuilder: thereisnotry Player: Weeks Weeks won GenCon with this build. It is the same as thereisnotry's Delaware regional winner from 2013 with the addition of the Mandalorian Demolitionists. PROFILERock/Paper/Scissors: Moderate Rock. Melee/NonMelee/Direct Damage: Nonmelee. Defense: Most of the squad is Cloaked, and Mandalore has Beskar'gam. General strategy: Use Thorium Charge to blow open the main doors early. Stay hidden (Cloaked/GMA) until you can use Resolnare to let the Tactician get line of sight at the beginning of a round. Activate 3 characters. Use Madalore's Disruptive carefully. Match-ups: I classified this as a moderate rock squad because there are 4 main threats (Mandalore, Kelborn, 2 scouts), and Mandalore is a high-cost character. With almost everything Cloaked, this squad has a strong advantage against most other shooter squads. With high-HP disruptive, it does well against anything that requires commander effects within 6. Kelborn and Mandalore provide great movement breakers, too. It will have difficulty with squads that can see through its Cloaked (e.g. Verpine Shatter Rifles), and with squads with high defense/shooter defenses. Max attack in the squad is 15, and Kelborn/Scouts max out at 13/12 (less without Cunning/Opportunist). It has no counter to a Lancer other than Disruptive, so the squad needs to cross the board quickly to take away the Lancer's hiding spots. Disruptive makes an opponent's swapping difficult. It is not very high activation, so a squad that can both out-activate and provide a great movement breaker would have a good advantage. However, the movement breaker has to be far enough to negate Cloaked, and once they've moved they are probably in the Disruptive bubble. REPORT CARD“Rock” damage: A- 90dmg per turn from Mandalore. “Paper” damage: B+ Four main damage dealers, but 5 pieces of tech are all better than the tech in most other factions. “Scissors” damage: C Triple on Mandalore. Double/GMA on Kelborn/Scouts. No true scissors pieces, though. Movement breakers: A Resolnare, MtV's CE, and GMA are pretty powerful. Flexibility: D The squad is what it is with no chances to adapt the squad to the opponent. Fortunately, it has counters to most major threats built-in already. Overall Grade: Tier 1 This is the GenCon 2014 winner, so it is clearly Tier 1.
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Well said. I'd only offer two comments to fill out your summary, though:
--Traps on the Saboteur is huge...it effectively gives a +4 attack boost to your pieces, which brings your shooters up to +16/+17/+19s, which is pretty solid. And it's easy to set him up with Resolnare, and then hide him again with MtV's CE. The Saboteur plays a critical role in matchups vs tanks or high-defense pieces.
--The Damage (rated at B+) above is a bit misleading. Yes, Mandalore himself only does 90...but he's one of just 3 pieces who are attacking that round when you win initiative. Basically, you set up so that if you win initiative you can nova-strike a key piece of your opponent's squad (easy to do if they're close to you, because Traps becomes a factor), and it's often hard for your opponent to recover after that. I've had first turns where I pour out over 200 damage. Generally I had MtV and Kelborn both attacking (for 90 and 80/120) and then either follow up with retreating someone to safety with the third activation or having the Tactician shoot for 40 if my pieces were safe after attacking. So anyway, I think the damage rating should be at least A-, if not A.
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thereisnotry wrote:Well said. I'd only offer two comments to fill out your summary, though:
--Traps on the Saboteur is huge...it effectively gives a +4 attack boost to your pieces, which brings your shooters up to +16/+17/+19s, which is pretty solid. And it's easy to set him up with Resolnare, and then hide him again with MtV's CE. The Saboteur plays a critical role in matchups vs tanks or high-defense pieces.
--The Damage (rated at B+) above is a bit misleading. Yes, Mandalore himself only does 90...but he's one of just 3 pieces who are attacking that round when you win initiative. Basically, you set up so that if you win initiative you can nova-strike a key piece of your opponent's squad (easy to do if they're close to you, because Traps becomes a factor), and it's often hard for your opponent to recover after that. I've had first turns where I pour out over 200 damage. Generally I had MtV and Kelborn both attacking (for 90 and 80/120) and then either follow up with retreating someone to safety with the third activation or having the Tactician shoot for 40 if my pieces were safe after attacking. So anyway, I think the damage rating should be at least A-, if not A. You don't need a lot of damage when you can focus all your fire power on one thing. I often would choose to activate 3 at initiative and kill the thing I wanted with MtV and Kelborn, then just spin a mouse or something for the third because that thing is dead.
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Great call on Traps. I hadn't taken that into consideration.
Total damage output per round or phase might have been a better criteria for the report card, but that isn't how I defined Rock damage. It's just max damage on one character in a turn. I'll give partial extra credit for a cannon shot but not for multiple attackers. I did upgrade Rock to A- here. Prof Luke got a B+ for 120 but that is very situational. MtV has 90 but it is always 'on'.
I also downgraded scissors to C from C+, keeping in line with previous grades. 9 attacks from the main attackers but no flexibility to bring in Momaw or another real scissors option.
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I still really enjoy reading these! I love the Format and would like to see more squad ratings. Do you take suggestions? Obviously not the newest stuff as we haven't had enough time to really play them out yet
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Feel free to make requests, but considering that I let this sit idle for a couple months, I can't make any promises. But for now I'll try to make up for lost time by adding in the NZ winner. So now I've covered all the GenCon winners since the Vsets launched plus this year's NZ winner. (Maybe with the next one I'll branch out some more.) --Daala in Her Prime V2.0--27 Admiral Daala 20 Admiral Piett 16 Admiral Gilad Pellaeon 16 Grand Admiral Rulf Yage 14 Imperial Officer 14 Stormtrooper on Repulsor Sled 11 Captain Needa 8 Mas Amedda 8 R7 Astromech Droid 60 Raxus Prime Trooper x12 6 Ugnaught Demolitionist x2 (200pts. 23 activations) http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/139645/daala-in-her-prime-v2-0Squadbuilder: Dr Daman This is the squad that walked through New Zealand essentially undefeated for an entire season. It was so dominant that unfortunately, I hear that it also caused some people to leave the game. It also contributed to the need for some errata. PROFILERock/Paper/Scissors: Extreme Scissors. Melee/NonMelee/Direct Damage: Nonmelee. Defense: Vulnerable. Defense is just that there are enough troops that they are expendable. General strategy: Repulsor Sled runs out with Charging Fire. Then a cannon shot fro the Imperial Officer. Total of 80 damage after running 24 squares with Flight. After a devastating first deep strike, swarm with the Raxus Prime, who have Charging Fire, Wall Climber and +13/30dmg, and +17 if they need a reroll. Hold inside the Force Bubble if you need to. Protects you from big force powers (e.g. Thought Bomb) and negates Lightsaber Defenses. Match-ups: This squad will overwhelm most Rock squads. Any squad that depends on a key piece with 80 hp or less could be in trouble. It is hard to protect them from the Repulsor Sled. Perhaps not as devastating as a Lancer - the Repulsor has less range and it only hits one target. But the Repulsor hits harder and can shoot. This will have a more difficult time with scissors squads or with squads with uber-defenses (~29+). With an uber-defense, Needa's rerolls could dry up pretty quickly. The +17 attack will hit most things most of the time, but one miss and Needa dies. REPORT CARD“Rock” damage: C Only 40 damage max, 80 with a cannon shot. “Paper” damage: A This is a paper squad - 13 troops to throw at the enemy. If they all die, there are 5 commanders who are all boosted by Prideful, so they at least have a chance to finish the cleanup. “Scissors” damage: C No way to affect multiple enemies at once, but there are enough troops here that it may not matter. Movement breakers: A Charging Fire is powerful, especially when paired with Speed 12, Flight, or Wall Climber. The cannon shot is unlimited range, so it is sort of like a movement breaker, too. Flexibility: B+ Pellaeon lets you swap out a commander for something else. So if you desperately need Accurate Shot, or Override, or a 2nd cannon shot, or Ozzel, you can get it. Overall Grade: Tier 1 Another easy squad to grade. Clearly Tier 1.
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Incidentally, on all of these championship squads you see that Movement Breakers are king. They all get an A except the OR squad, whose claim to fame is ABM. And ABM negates many opposing movement breakers, so it evens things out to a great degree.
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Let's grab a squad more-or-less at random from the recent squads list. --CGI Funyuns--38 Anakin Skywalker, the Chosen One 35 Boss Nass 20 Blizz 19 Captain Tarpals 16 Gungan Shieldbearer 16 Queen Amidala 36 Gungan Artillerist x4 9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid 9 Ugnaught Demolitionist x3 Preferred Reinforcements: (Boss Nass) 18 Gungan Artillerist x2 (198pts. 16 activations) http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/143336/cgi-funyunsSquadbuilder: Joseph blob PROFILERock/Paper/Scissors: Moderate paper. Melee/NonMelee/Direct Damage: Direct Damage. Defense: Non-melee. Energy shield provides some good ranged defense. Anakin has Lightsaber Defense, but the rest of the squad will fall to melee pretty quickly once they engage. General strategy: Keep Anakin in front to slow down advancing Melee. Keep Gungans with the Shield Bearer to reflect shooters shots back at them. Stay out of line of sight as much as possible and use Mobile Attack to attack while staying safe. Match-ups: This squad does a great job of going around Parry, Evade, and the like. Also negates very high defenses. Force users and other squads that can re-roll saves or get a bonus to saves will do better. Extreme movement breakers are likely to cause this squad problems. On certain maps, opposing swarm squads will not be able to avoid clumping together. They will pay for that. REPORT CARD“Rock” damage: C+ 80 damage max, but that requires Anakin to take a risk with Dark Temptation. Double Cesta can do 40 damage. Double Flamethrower is 40 auto-damage. “Paper” damage: B+ Using the recommended reinforcements leads to 8 attackers, and the 3 commanders are relatively beefy, even if they don't pack much punch. “Scissors” damage: B The Gungans have Cesta (missiles) and Blizz brings both Missiles and Flamethrower. And they can do those things twice with Tarpals. If the enemy clumps up at all they will pay for it. Movement breakers: B R2-D2 is a great movement breaker, but he doesn't have much staying power and he is the only one included in the squad. If he tows Anakin, then Anakin can Bodyguard to keep him alive. Anakin has GMA. All the rest have Mobile Attack, so they can generally stay out of line of sight. Flexibility: B Boss Nass lets you choose Gungan Reinforcements. The options include Gungan Elite Infantry for save roll boosts, Jar Jar Binks for general annoyance, an extra Shield Bearer versus a shooter-heavy enemy, Gungan Cavalry on Kaadu if facing a swarm of 10-HP enemies, or 2 Artillerists for more Cestas. That provides some flexibility, but it's a limited selection. Overall Grade: Tier 2 Gungan-Tarpals squads can be at least Tier 1.5, and possibly Tier 1, but this version leaves itself vulnerable to multiple well-known Tier 1 squads. Naboo death shots should have a strong advantage despite the Shield Bearer. There aren't enough movement breakers or activations here to catch up with the high movement Tier 1 squads. Yobuck, Lancer, and Black & Blue will come in, do damage, and disappear before the Gungans can do anything. They can do well against tank squads, though, particularly tank squads that rely on high defense ratings and defending attacks. Caedus, especially, since he has Force Ascetic. Anakin Skywalker, the Chosen One seems sub-optimal here. He does not synergize with the rest of the squad's commander effects. While he has Lightsaber Riposte, he cannot kill a Lancer without using Dark Temptation, which probably isn't worth the risk. His ability to bodyguard for the Gungans while simultaneously providing some melee interference is probably his best asset here. For 38 points, the melee interference should be more threatening. He maxes out at 40 damage or 80 with Dark Temptation. An Emperor could allow him to "safely" use Dark Temptation by granting a reroll, but without that it's too big of a risk to use it early in the match. (Disclaimer: I haven't actually seen this squad in action, so my thoughts here could be way off.)
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The General Strategy and Match up's section seem to be copied from the above Daala squad.
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So I will make some suggestions for Squad ratings as this is probably the most interesting thread to me at the moment on Bloomilk. How about: This isn't the Lesser Dooku http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/139355/-this-isnt-the-lesser-dookuA Dooku squad. Either this one or the version you think runs better. A Zekk Mower style squad for the New Republic. http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/143063/-han-helps-mow-the-lawn-in-his-old-ageA ARC Scout squad. http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/142901/-cloaked-arc-deathshootsMine has Death shots, but I have seen them do really well without Deathsots too. A squad with the rising star Aayla Secura? She is pretty boss, something pretty generic with good pieces like this: http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/136150/the-many-cins-of-us-allVictory OR Defeat. http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/139260/-victory-or-defeatA typical competitive OR squad that still does really well. With the best pieces that faction has to offer. (Atton, Carth, Satale, ect) This squad with Satale Shan, Bao and some Zann Consortium Droidekas. http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/136939/-old-droids-in-good-repair.A squad with Darth Caedus in it, maybe like this squad: http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/138724/oh-my-poor-jacen--how-far-have-you-fallen-or one with the GAG troopers? I think Darth Revan and Zannah are tough cookies and a squad with both might be worth a Review. http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/140996/revans-tank-dropThis one just for fun: http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/135459/the-unstoppable-juggernaut
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Deathwielded wrote:The General Strategy and Match up's section seem to be copied from the above Daala squad. Whoops. I copied the template but skipped parts. (Now fixed.)
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I Really like the addition of Blizz to a tarpals squad, and I am going to have to look at my old gungan squad from the NY regional to see where he fits in.
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Perhaps nix Momaw?
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--_This isn't the Lesser Dooku-- 100 Dooku 27 Lobot 16 BX Commando Droid Spotter 15 BX Commando Droid Sniper 10 San Hill 9 Poggle the Lesser 6 Mouse Droid x2 16 Geonosian Drone x8 (199pts. 16 activations) http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/139355/-this-isnt-the-lesser-dookuSquadbuilder: Deathwielded PROFILE Rock/Paper/Scissors: Rock. Melee/NonMelee/Direct Damage: Options with all 3, but relatively large amount of Direct Damage. Defense: Tank. Energy shield provides some good ranged defense. Twin and Jedi Reflexes and Makashi Style Mastery and Lightsaber Duelist all make Dooku an incredible tank versus Melee. General strategy: Keep the Sniper and Dooku adjacent to the Spotter. Sniper kills everything it sees. Anything that comes close gets killed by Dooku. MTB plus 8 bombs for more damage. Match-ups: This squad matches up really well with a lot of different squads. The real problem is against a shooter squad that kills the Spotter. So an Accurate Shooter that makes a couple of Energy Shield saves is all it takes. So an Accurate shooter that is a force user (for a reroll) would fit that role really well. Chain Lightning is deadly against swarms, but Vong or Ysalamiri can neutralize it. So a Pellaeon swarm or a Vong swarm (with Spit Poison) could do well. However, overall the squad has few bad matchups. It's one of the biggest "rock" squads, so it will do well against most other melee rock squads. Chain Lightning is a very strong "paper" deterrent. Riposte and the bombs mean that melee scissors squads aren't a problem either. Shooter squads that feature higher-hp characters could be a challenge, especially if they have an accurate shooter who can target the Spotter directly. REPORT CARD “Rock” damage: B- 80 damage max, but it requires Dooku to have already based the enemy. Riposte 2 and Jedi Reflexes means that he can also easily put 90 damage on an enemy on their turn. “Paper” damage: D Only two threats, with the option to bring in another with Lobot. “Scissors” damage: B+ Chain Lightning is a strong option. Movement breakers: C+ The two BX's have Intuition and Dooku has MotF2 for moving faster, but it's not particularly fast. Flexibility: A Lobot provides great flexibility, and the Poggle bombs make MTB a Lobot option. MTB isn't available to every squad with Lobot, so Flexibility here is a bit better than usual. Overall Grade: Tier 1.5 Dooku is a very strong option, but until more scissors options come out, it's still a paper-dominated meta. Dooku will struggle against Pellaeon, Talon, or Vong swarms. His auto-wins (e.g. Lancer) won't be enough to counter-balance that, but overall he's still strong enough to potentially win everything if he just avoids the Force Immune swarms.
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FlyingArrow wrote:Let's grab a squad more-or-less at random from the recent squads list. --CGI Funyuns--38 Anakin Skywalker, the Chosen One 35 Boss Nass 20 Blizz 19 Captain Tarpals 16 Gungan Shieldbearer 16 Queen Amidala 36 Gungan Artillerist x4 9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid 9 Ugnaught Demolitionist x3 Preferred Reinforcements: (Boss Nass) 18 Gungan Artillerist x2 (198pts. 16 activations) http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/143336/cgi-funyunsSquadbuilder: Joseph blob PROFILERock/Paper/Scissors: Moderate paper. Melee/NonMelee/Direct Damage: Direct Damage. Defense: Non-melee. Energy shield provides some good ranged defense. Anakin has Lightsaber Defense, but the rest of the squad will fall to melee pretty quickly once they engage. General strategy: Keep Anakin in front to slow down advancing Melee. Keep Gungans with the Shield Bearer to reflect shooters shots back at them. Stay out of line of sight as much as possible and use Mobile Attack to attack while staying safe. Match-ups: This squad does a great job of going around Parry, Evade, and the like. Also negates very high defenses. Force users and other squads that can re-roll saves or get a bonus to saves will do better. Extreme movement breakers are likely to cause this squad problems. On certain maps, opposing swarm squads will not be able to avoid clumping together. They will pay for that. REPORT CARD“Rock” damage: C+ 80 damage max, but that requires Anakin to take a risk with Dark Temptation. Double Cesta can do 40 damage. Double Flamethrower is 40 auto-damage. “Paper” damage: B+ Using the recommended reinforcements leads to 8 attackers, and the 3 commanders are relatively beefy, even if they don't pack much punch. “Scissors” damage: B The Gungans have Cesta (missiles) and Blizz brings both Missiles and Flamethrower. And they can do those things twice with Tarpals. If the enemy clumps up at all they will pay for it. Movement breakers: B R2-D2 is a great movement breaker, but he doesn't have much staying power and he is the only one included in the squad. If he tows Anakin, then Anakin can Bodyguard to keep him alive. Anakin has GMA. All the rest have Mobile Attack, so they can generally stay out of line of sight. Flexibility: B Boss Nass lets you choose Gungan Reinforcements. The options include Gungan Elite Infantry for save roll boosts, Jar Jar Binks for general annoyance, an extra Shield Bearer versus a shooter-heavy enemy, Gungan Cavalry on Kaadu if facing a swarm of 10-HP enemies, or 2 Artillerists for more Cestas. That provides some flexibility, but it's a limited selection. Overall Grade: Tier 2 Gungan-Tarpals squads can be at least Tier 1.5, and possibly Tier 1, but this version leaves itself vulnerable to multiple well-known Tier 1 squads. Naboo death shots should have a strong advantage despite the Shield Bearer. There aren't enough movement breakers or activations here to catch up with the high movement Tier 1 squads. Yobuck, Lancer, and Black & Blue will come in, do damage, and disappear before the Gungans can do anything. They can do well against tank squads, though, particularly tank squads that rely on high defense ratings and defending attacks. Caedus, especially, since he has Force Ascetic. Anakin Skywalker, the Chosen One seems sub-optimal here. He does not synergize with the rest of the squad's commander effects. While he has Lightsaber Riposte, he cannot kill a Lancer without using Dark Temptation, which probably isn't worth the risk. His ability to bodyguard for the Gungans while simultaneously providing some melee interference is probably his best asset here. For 38 points, the melee interference should be more threatening. He maxes out at 40 damage or 80 with Dark Temptation. An Emperor could allow him to "safely" use Dark Temptation by granting a reroll, but without that it's too big of a risk to use it early in the match. (Disclaimer: I haven't actually seen this squad in action, so my thoughts here could be way off.) You say Caedus is especially bad against this squad, and I agree with you to a certain extent. Bad GAS can do well with the guns. SBM into pits if available or SBM guys away from the shield and use GMA with Jaq to take out 2. the others cant respond on Caedus because I moved them out of range so they either can't or they have to target a mouse. Then my GA's take them out. It isn't easy, but it is certainly a match when played against a good Caedus player. I am curious how you rank 'Bad GAS' now. It did well for me in 2013 but I do think it lost a step.
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Yeah agreed, Dooku will suffer against Force Immunity. Very Strong against Melee/Beatstick squads and Gallop/Strafe Squads. shooters will find it hard to shoot dooku since it's a 50/50 chance of dropping the damage on themselves and to negate that defense you need to base Dooku which is a very bad idea, basically an auto 40 damage. With some positioning you should pretty much have the Spotter covered so you can't safely base it either. Characters with Accurate Shot with High HP and force point re-rolls are hard to find, the only really viable options are Mira, Han Solo, Rebel General, Zuckuss, Bounty Hunter and Kyle Katarn. You could also use Arica with Sniper, but you probably will use her Fprr on BB. Daala squads with Pell are a threat, but you need to keep him in the fray or they will get zapped and if you do then the BX Sniper will shoot him up. Even then the Troopers still have a 50/50 chance of killing themselves.
Poggle Bombs are also more fun with Dooku's CE allowing them to Reroll their missed attack at +4 attack and +10 damage, and if they miss again then they die. A Win-Win since they will self Destruct so nearly a 100% chance of 20 damage when the are based or attacking. (excluding Disruptive, ABM, Force Leap, or a hit in the first place, ect.)
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