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my, how the change has changed Options
atmsalad
Posted: Monday, June 29, 2015 9:10:50 PM
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Deaths_Baine wrote:
Yeah and since we both get same amount of gambit no one has a reason to engage.

I have literally never had that happen, even when my opponent is trying to do that... and it has only ever happened on one occasion to me personally. Again, I consider it to be a poor use of ones resources...
jen'ari
Posted: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 7:03:22 AM
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hmmm extra gambit for a smaller base squad? sounds intriguing but i would say it should be

pieces n Gambit in an army with 12 or fewer gain 15 gambit.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 7:33:43 AM
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atmsalad wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
Yeah and since we both get same amount of gambit no one has a reason to engage.

I have literally never had that happen, even when my opponent is trying to do that... and it has only ever happened on one occasion to me personally. Again, I consider it to be a poor use of ones resources...


3pt win is the reason to engage.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 7:35:21 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
atmsalad wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
Yeah and since we both get same amount of gambit no one has a reason to engage.

I have literally never had that happen, even when my opponent is trying to do that... and it has only ever happened on one occasion to me personally. Again, I consider it to be a poor use of ones resources...


3pt win is the reason to engage.



yeah and honestly I would like to see how many three point wins are necessary, and after swiss no one gives a CRAP about 3 point wins because it doesn't matter anymore at that point.
thereisnotry
Posted: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 7:35:56 AM
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A wild shot suggestion might be a change to the floor rules for competitive events:

At the start of each phase, if you have fewer pieces yet to activate than your opponent, you may choose to Pass, thus letting your opponent take another phase of activations.

This would solve the problem of out-activate and smash and 23-activation squads waiting for a normal squad to finish activating, only to stomp them and then win init the next round and do it again. I'm sure that many people will not like this change, stating that it removes some of the flavor from some of the factions, etc. But if we're really concerned about the end-and-start-of-round domination, then this would solve it.
atmsalad
Posted: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 8:05:27 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
atmsalad wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
Yeah and since we both get same amount of gambit no one has a reason to engage.

I have literally never had that happen, even when my opponent is trying to do that... and it has only ever happened on one occasion to me personally. Again, I consider it to be a poor use of ones resources...


3pt win is the reason to engage.

I agree, but I think it is more 1 point losses that give you the reason to engage. It used to be you could make top 8 with only 1 3 point win, but this is less of a guarantee with those extra points flying around. I think I have seen more ties for 4th this regional season as opposed to the past for this reason as well.
atmsalad
Posted: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 8:12:58 AM
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Deaths_Baine wrote:
yeah and honestly I would like to see how many three point wins are necessary, and after swiss no one gives a CRAP about 3 point wins because it doesn't matter anymore at that point.
When did it ever matter? Last night I read through a thread where you brought up this same point in 2013. http://www.bloomilk.com/Forums/default.aspx?g=posts&m=143311
I am not sure finishing games in top 8, and 4, in time has ever been necessary, but with that being said, I do believe that last year all of the top 8 games finished within time. At least the 3 I was involved with did, most didn't even take 45 minutes.
atmsalad
Posted: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 8:25:00 AM
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thereisnotry wrote:
A wild shot suggestion might be a change to the floor rules for competitive events:

At the start of each phase, if you have fewer pieces yet to activate than your opponent, you may choose to Pass, thus letting your opponent take another phase of activations.

This would solve the problem of out-activate and smash and 23-activation squads waiting for a normal squad to finish activating, only to stomp them and then win init the next round and do it again. I'm sure that many people will not like this change, stating that it removes some of the flavor from some of the factions, etc. But if we're really concerned about the end-and-start-of-round domination, then this would solve it.
No it wouldn't, lol Low activation squads with a ton of override would become the new out activate and smash squads... Then you don't half to waste points on cheap paper thin activations and all of your points can just go into a few beafy pieces...
thereisnotry
Posted: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 9:13:14 AM
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Joined: 4/29/2008
Posts: 1,784
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atmsalad wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
A wild shot suggestion might be a change to the floor rules for competitive events:

At the start of each phase, if you have fewer pieces yet to activate than your opponent, you may choose to Pass, thus letting your opponent take another phase of activations.

This would solve the problem of out-activate and smash and 23-activation squads waiting for a normal squad to finish activating, only to stomp them and then win init the next round and do it again. I'm sure that many people will not like this change, stating that it removes some of the flavor from some of the factions, etc. But if we're really concerned about the end-and-start-of-round domination, then this would solve it.
No it wouldn't, lol Low activation squads with a ton of override would become the new out activate and smash squads... Then you don't half to waste points on cheap paper thin activations and all of your points can just go into a few beafy pieces...
And that is bad how?

Besides, I don't think you understand. There would be *no* out-activate-and-smash squads. At all. Take note of the underlined and bolded section (in the quoted portion of this post).

For clarification:
--Round: the collection of all phases and activations after initiative is rolled
--Phase: when it's "your turn," you have 2 activations to make in a Phase (sometimes changed by Tempo Control pieces)
--Activation: using one piece

Therefore, you would only be able to Pass as long as your opponent had more guys to activate than you did. Once you were even in activations, play would revert to the standard 2-then-2-then-2-then-2 pattern that the game was designed for.

At most you would have a single free activation at the end of the round. And if you won init you could go first at the start of the next. Beyond that, the whole out-act tactic would be gone. Some people would say that's a loss for the game as a whole, but there are others who would disagree entirely.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 9:35:59 AM
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atmsalad wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
yeah and honestly I would like to see how many three point wins are necessary, and after swiss no one gives a CRAP about 3 point wins because it doesn't matter anymore at that point.
When did it ever matter? Last night I read through a thread where you brought up this same point in 2013. http://www.bloomilk.com/Forums/default.aspx?g=posts&m=143311
I am not sure finishing games in top 8, and 4, in time has ever been necessary, but with that being said, I do believe that last year all of the top 8 games finished within time. At least the 3 I was involved with did, most didn't even take 45 minutes.



good so 2 years later it is still a problem thanks for pointing that out. lol. and yeah you were also running daala so they shouldnt have taken more then 45 minutes.

seriously though, you can make top 4 with one 3 point point win in a lot of cases, as that would be 9 points, and 9 points is top 4 alot of the time, as long as you win the others with 2 points and don't give out 1 point losses, which bronson didnt playing the way he played. and then you are going to play offs with a squad optimized for winning with 2 points, and don't even have to worry about attempting to finish the game.
atmsalad
Posted: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 9:49:59 AM
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thereisnotry wrote:
atmsalad wrote:
No it wouldn't, lol Low activation squads with a ton of override would become the new out activate and smash squads... Then you don't half to waste points on cheap paper thin activations and all of your points can just go into a few beafy pieces...
And that is bad how?

Besides, I don't think you understand. There would be *no* out-activate-and-smash squads. At all. Take note of the underlined and bolded section (in the quoted portion of this post).

For clarification:
--Round: the collection of all phases and activations after initiative is rolled
--Phase: when it's "your turn," you have 2 activations to make in a Phase (sometimes changed by Tempo Control pieces)
--Activation: using one piece

Therefore, you would only be able to Pass as long as your opponent had more guys to activate than you did. Once you were even in activations, play would revert to the standard 2-then-2-then-2-then-2 pattern that the game was designed for.

At most you would have a single free activation at the end of the round. And if you won init you could go first at the start of the next. Beyond that, the whole out-act tactic would be gone. Some people would say that's a loss for the game as a whole, but there are others who would disagree entirely.
You misunderstand me... for players, such as yourself that want to be able to play an 8 act squad with 3-4 beefy attackers this is great... For those that hate the act control aspect of the game this is wonderful... For those that feel having 6 activation squads results in an erosion of the strategy of the game this is not beneficial. If this Idea was taken into effect, squads like this could easily become the norm...
--Seperatist beat sticks--
56 Durge on Speeder
43 Cad Bane, Bounty Hunter
35 Asajj Ventress, Nightsister
31 Morrigan Corde
27 Lobot
8 R7 Astromech Droid

(200pts. 6 activations)

I this seriously what you want?
thereisnotry
Posted: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 10:14:45 AM
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Yes, I'd love it! lol

But I know it will never happen; the game is too far in to make a change like this now. But I mentioned it because it would solve the problem that people have been talking about in this thread. If out-activation and the MTB are as dominant as people are saying, then this suggestion by me would solve the problem. I don't claim this is the only way (or even the best way) to solve the problem, but it would do it. And yes, I would definitely enjoy a format that allows for less of the tempo abuse than we currently see.
atmsalad
Posted: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 10:15:29 AM
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Deaths_Baine wrote:
atmsalad wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
yeah and honestly I would like to see how many three point wins are necessary, and after swiss no one gives a CRAP about 3 point wins because it doesn't matter anymore at that point.
When did it ever matter? Last night I read through a thread where you brought up this same point in 2013. http://www.bloomilk.com/Forums/default.aspx?g=posts&m=143311
I am not sure finishing games in top 8, and 4, in time has ever been necessary, but with that being said, I do believe that last year all of the top 8 games finished within time. At least the 3 I was involved with did, most didn't even take 45 minutes.



good so 2 years later it is still a problem thanks for pointing that out. lol. and yeah you were also running daala so they shouldnt have taken more then 45 minutes.

seriously though, you can make top 4 with one 3 point point win in a lot of cases, as that would be 9 points, and 9 points is top 4 alot of the time, as long as you win the others with 2 points and don't give out 1 point losses, which bronson didnt playing the way he played. and then you are going to play offs with a squad optimized for winning with 2 points, and don't even have to worry about attempting to finish the game.
It isn't still an issue, I have only played in one top 4 this year where I think the end result may have gone my way. However, I was still out played within the hour mark and my opponent deserved the win over me because of that. I graciously give him credit for that because we both were under no illusions about the time constraints of our match, nor was I slow played. If I had been, I am sure the 2 judges standing over our game would have informed me before even I knew...

With daala, I got 7 shots per round at 30 a pop when they hit, with a 12 atk it wasn't guaranteed at all(and needa rerolls are a huge risk). I finished quickly because I knew my squad and played it fast. You say daala like it makes it easy to run... My squad was not easy to run. Other daala squads banked on out activating and smashing, mine did not and I never played it that way. Not to mention 4 of my games that day I was out activated and most of the time I brought less door control than my opponents.

Intuition, and the like is an ability that has been around since WOTC. I am not even sure it is an issue as I have never seen someone run it to success. Perhaps bronson and I will have to play a match on vassal. One hitch is you have to win out in a 4 round swiss tournament, no easy task. Also, you have to only play on maps where you can exploit this advantage. Good luck with all that...
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 10:26:33 AM
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excerpt from a play report in the vassal tournament:
Well played by Bronson, and in hindsight I probably should have held back in gambit and try for a 2pt win instead of trying to attempt going for the 3pt win,

excerpt: from another game
The first few rounds are not very exciting as Flying Arrow was able to cover up in a corner where I could not get to him with my shooters, and he stayed there. I moved in took shots at his uggs, and mouse, shut and locked doors and captured Gambit, then intuitioned back to safety at the start of the next round.

yet another one:
To sum up the game, I mouse walled off and Tim spent most of the game attacking crap that didn't count. just to point it out final was a big whopping 67 to 16

yeah, the game has problems in it.
atmsalad
Posted: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 10:39:30 AM
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Deaths_Baine wrote:
excerpt from a play report in the vassal tournament:
Well played by Bronson, and in hindsight I probably should have held back in gambit and try for a 2pt win instead of trying to attempt going for the 3pt win,

excerpt: from another game
The first few rounds are not very exciting as Flying Arrow was able to cover up in a corner where I could not get to him with my shooters, and he stayed there. I moved in took shots at his uggs, and mouse, shut and locked doors and captured Gambit, then intuitioned back to safety at the start of the next round.

yet another one:
To sum up the game, I mouse walled off and Tim spent most of the game attacking crap that didn't count. just to point it out final was a big whopping 67 to 16

yeah, the game has problems in it.

And what is a reasonable solution?
FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 10:54:13 AM
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Deaths_Baine wrote:
excerpt: from another game
The first few rounds are not very exciting as Flying Arrow was able to cover up in a corner where I could not get to him with my shooters, and he stayed there. I moved in took shots at his uggs, and mouse, shut and locked doors and captured Gambit, then intuitioned back to safety at the start of the next round.


I gave up gambit points while I was charging up Force points. Not sure what the problem is there.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 1:15:53 PM
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Posts: 1,628
FlyingArrow wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
excerpt: from another game
The first few rounds are not very exciting as Flying Arrow was able to cover up in a corner where I could not get to him with my shooters, and he stayed there. I moved in took shots at his uggs, and mouse, shut and locked doors and captured Gambit, then intuitioned back to safety at the start of the next round.


I gave up gambit points while I was charging up Force points. Not sure what the problem is there.



nothing at all, i will bold the part i care about, you did what you had to in this game for sure man.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 1:20:23 PM
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Joined: 5/31/2010
Posts: 1,628
atmsalad wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
excerpt from a play report in the vassal tournament:
Well played by Bronson, and in hindsight I probably should have held back in gambit and try for a 2pt win instead of trying to attempt going for the 3pt win,

excerpt: from another game
The first few rounds are not very exciting as Flying Arrow was able to cover up in a corner where I could not get to him with my shooters, and he stayed there. I moved in took shots at his uggs, and mouse, shut and locked doors and captured Gambit, then intuitioned back to safety at the start of the next round.

yet another one:
To sum up the game, I mouse walled off and Tim spent most of the game attacking crap that didn't count. just to point it out final was a big whopping 67 to 16

yeah, the game has problems in it.

And what is a reasonable solution?



wow, reasonable solution, well.. there hardly is one that the majority of people would call reasonable... i would take some of the steps legacy did already make it to where you can move through mice and mice don't provide cover. i would ban act control straight out. i would make ALL commander effects range 6 and get rid of booming voice.


i would also do away with 2 point pieces completely.
countrydude82487
Posted: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 1:56:17 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 12/26/2008
Posts: 1,233
Deaths_Baine wrote:
atmsalad wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
excerpt from a play report in the vassal tournament:
Well played by Bronson, and in hindsight I probably should have held back in gambit and try for a 2pt win instead of trying to attempt going for the 3pt win,

excerpt: from another game
The first few rounds are not very exciting as Flying Arrow was able to cover up in a corner where I could not get to him with my shooters, and he stayed there. I moved in took shots at his uggs, and mouse, shut and locked doors and captured Gambit, then intuitioned back to safety at the start of the next round.

yet another one:
To sum up the game, I mouse walled off and Tim spent most of the game attacking crap that didn't count. just to point it out final was a big whopping 67 to 16

yeah, the game has problems in it.

And what is a reasonable solution?



wow, reasonable solution, well.. there hardly is one that the majority of people would call reasonable... i would take some of the steps legacy did already make it to where you can move through mice and mice don't provide cover. i would ban act control straight out. i would make ALL commander effects range 6 and get rid of booming voice.


i would also do away with 2 point pieces completely.



I'll address the bolded information first. I happen to like activation control. It already has its own downfall in most cases other than Dodonna.
I really don't like the idea of all CE's being range 6. Many were not designed to be that way and would not work well if they were restricted as such.
Also getting rid of booming voice is something i don't see happening. I tend to not play it very often, but I'm not against playing it myself.

Now making mice not provide cover, No problem to me. Release an errata for them, and it would solve them. Now i don't think you should be able to ignore them entirely just they don't provide cover, but that is my Opinion.

I also Whole-heatedly agree that Rapport Should be Errataed to not allow 2 point pieces. Simple glossary fix.

I will say that i know some of these things are being worked on at the moment by the Balance team. We will not see any changes released until after Gen-Con, but they will be working on these problems, and Discussing them.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 2:13:04 PM
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Joined: 5/31/2010
Posts: 1,628
here are some of the issues i see with booming voice.
--Death Becomes Them--
23 Mon Mothma
21 Admiral Yularen
20 Captain Panaka of Theed
20 Padawan Commander
16 Queen Amidala
9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid
8 Mas Amedda
50 Naboo Trooper x10
4 Rodian Diplomat
8 Spaarti Clone Trooper Demolitionist x2
21 Naboo Soldier x7]

cool now i start the game with over what....90 points that never has to leave my starting zone... have fun collecting 200 points on me when almost HALF never has to leave the first 4 squares of the map heck if i include amidala it is actually over 100 points that never has to move from the start position.

27 Admiral Daala
16 Admiral Gilad Pellaeon
16 Security Officer Stormtrooper
14 Imperial Officer
14 Stormtrooper on Repulsor Sled
65 Elite Scout Trooper x5
11 Captain Needa
8 Mas Amedda
8 R7 Astromech Droid
15 Imperial Dignitary x3
3 Mouse Droid
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist

76 points that never has to leave starting area.
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