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kobayashimaru wrote:for what its worth, I look at Transfer Essence as a quicktime event - much as in Southpark, Stick of Truth or Japanimes, the game can be slowed to allow two characters to 'tag team' - thats how I figure 'transfer essence' functions. To date, only 4 pieces I am aware of, possess that ability. Sure, it could be used on medium allies etc... but, I think it is an ambivalent ability which can harm a squad if used improperly. It is probably a slightly undercosted ability for what it can do - but that negative side to it, is why it is priced as it is. Do I care that they can transfer their identity/"transporter pattern" into a demonic non-corporeal force ghost, or aliens with exobiology which is incompatible with the transferee? not so much - because I like seeing the swap backfiring more often than not... and if they swap-flee, they've bought maybe 1 turn, while I keep gambit positioned  Transfer Essence isn't as annoying to me as having Gha Nackt auto include, Mouse Droid/Ugnaught Auto Include, Lobot Auto Include... etc folks that were minor characters becoming so powerful and ubiquitous grinds the gears somewhat more than a character using 'the force' to 'force' into a 'force ghost' - though I can empathise with some consternation about trepidation when it comes to raising concrit candid feedback - if someone is being as objective as possible and using logos or freethinking to share something that is important to them, good on them for the intestinal fortitude and where-with-all to post in such a public fora for all time, for all to see +1, it isn't the biggest issue in the world relatively speaking, but I just feel like if we're taking the time to look at all these issues, this is one worth looking into as well.
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Can someone explain to me the issue with Transferring into a Ghost vs Holosidious/Holoveers?
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Not to mention, this really wouldn't be an issue in the first place if Force Spirits were unable to haunt one another. Then when you have 3, 4 force spirits on a team, that's where issues arise in terms of rule-bending.
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Sithborg wrote:Can someone explain to me the issue with Transferring into a Ghost vs Holosidious/Holoveers? These should absolutely be on the table for discussion as well, in my opinion.
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gholli69 wrote: Yes it is silly a ghost is living, but ghost lives matter, and if their classification as living is the big complaint and not the way it plays in the game, then does it really need to be changed? forgot to make it #ghostlivesmatter 
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Darth_Reignir wrote:Not to mention, this really wouldn't be an issue in the first place if Force Spirits were unable to haunt one another. Then when you have 3, 4 force spirits on a team, that's where issues arise in terms of rule-bending.
Ghosts don't haunt each other in the Lord Krayt swap squad.
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Darth_Reignir wrote:The question is not whether or not it happened in the lore, because as Sithborg points out, the lore means jack to the rules, Awesome. That should settle more than one discussion, then.
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so, maybe Transfer Essence needs a "can't get/maintain transporter lock" - that fits with NuWarsTrek continuity, yeah? I asked myself, what would J.J. do, and, thats the steamer that happens hehehe Isn't it difficult for a force ghost to maintain a presence in the mortal plane/ 5D space-time? Obi wan seemed to intermittently appear, and Qui-Gon wasn't always able to make or maintain contact. waiting force ghosts out via attrition was a strategy Katarn used in the Valley of the Jedi. Moving a visual representation around in the 5D spacetime didn't seem taxing, but, making interventions into the 5D event-space seemed to tire the ghost a lot... What mechanics might reflect that, purely for hypothetical or solution-orientated freethinking? a save 11 uncertainty to transfer essence, with a 1 FP per activation upkeep cost or take 10 DMG (on both figures, save 11 or save 16)? this would very much alter Swap into a 1 time only tactic, and would punish the swap strategy... though, in some builds which get more powerful when damaged, it would increase their damage output. Should the swapped pieces be treated like force ghost - a force point can be spent to revert the swap? (similar to force ghosts being able to be dispelled by an adj. user with a force point battle or something...) Should transfer essence have a compounding cost component after the first swap - swap once, that's cool. swap twice, -1 FP on both figs Swap thrice, -2FP, -20HP on both figs etc... Swap 7 or more, insta death, save 11. Swap 10 - insta death.
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FlyingArrow wrote:Darth_Reignir wrote:The question is not whether or not it happened in the lore, because as Sithborg points out, the lore means jack to the rules, Awesome. That should settle more than one discussion, then. 'Eyyyy, look at that comma there -- it's almost like there was more to that sentence!
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Darth_Reignir wrote:The fact of the matter is that Transfer Essence says it must target a living ally (usable only on this character's turn: Choose 1 living ally. Remove that ally from play and place this character in that ally's space; that ally is defeated.) The question is not whether or not it happened in the lore, because as Sithborg points out, the lore means jack to the rules, but rather, why we consider a force spirit a living ally.
The only way you become a force spirit is through death, thus, nonliving. I'll quote myself because this seems relevant in the current part of this conversation.
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kobayashimaru wrote:this would very much alter Swap into a 1 time only tactic, and would punish the swap strategy...
though, in some builds which get more powerful when damaged, it would increase their damage output. Do you know that the pieces don't actually "swap" per se? The piece that's transferred into is defeated, and the other piece occupies its former square.
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Sithborg wrote:Can someone explain to me the issue with Transferring into a Ghost vs Holosidious/Holoveers? Holosidious can be attacked and cannot walk through walls. There is not an issue with transferring into Holoveers because no Imperial or Fringe characters have transfer essence. There might be an issue with them being living thematically, but not for gameplay. They are not an issue like transferring into ghosts can be in tournament play.
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DarkDracul wrote:Sithborg wrote:Can someone explain to me the issue with Transferring into a Ghost vs Holosidious/Holoveers? Holosidious can be attacked and cannot walk through walls. There is not an issue with transferring into Holoveers because no Imperial or Fringe characters have transfer essence. There might be an issue with them being living thematically, but not for gameplay. They are not an issue like transferring into ghosts can be in tournament play. +1 Much better then what I was going to say.
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I'm not a fan of them counting as living. It allows transferring into ghosts and ghosts haunting other ghost. Those are two things I am not in favor for.
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atmsalad wrote:It allows ..... ghosts haunting other ghost. Those are two things I am not in favor for. What's your reasoning for this? Not saying I disagree, just want to hear your thought process.
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atmsalad wrote:I'm not a fan of them counting as living. It allows .... ghosts haunting other ghost. they would still be able to haunt each other even if they were non-living all you need is a character with a force rating to haunt. Living doesn't come into it. This is the issue, all changing the wording of Living to exclude light spirit, dark spirit and eternal sith spirit into the description would do it prevent transferring into it.
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TheHutts wrote:atmsalad wrote:It allows ..... ghosts haunting other ghost. Those are two things I am not in favor for. What's your reasoning for this? Not saying I disagree, just want to hear your thought process. I second TheHutt's request. I'd like to point out something else: I believe it's debatable whether or not ghosts should count for Transfer Essence. I've seen some good reasoning from both sides. However, the way the situation stands: A. Ghosts being living is not a problem for the game. Unless I missed something, nobody has said that it allows any broken combos in competitive or casual play. B. I think there's been a lot of evidence in support of the fact that Ghosts could count as living, but either way, whether the lore supports this or not is both hotly contested and, as SithBorg said, irrelevant. C. (This point will derail and rabbit-trail a little bit) It is way, WAY less important than many other flavor-based changes. If we're going to change the Force Ghosts simply because it makes a little more sense another way, then we must first do away with Lightsaber Reflect 10. While I consider using weaker reflect (in the case of pieces like Critdu) a brilliant balancing measure, it boggles my mind that the Grand Master of the Jedi Order and his right-hand-man aren't skilled enough to reflect a shot directly back at the attacker. Also, whenever an attack is successfully evaded/deflected/reflected, why do effects like Jolt still come into play? Why would a living bodyguard protecting a droid still take damage from Ion Gun? For that matter, as was brought up earlier, why can't every Jedi or Sith use Lightsaber Defense? The problems I listed above are way more widespread, and would have a greater impact on the game. But those problems are there (a) for the sake of simplicity and (b) because one rule was made before another rule, and thus Rule #1 couldn't anticipate potential weird reactions with Rule #2.
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fingersandteeth wrote:
This is the issue, all changing the wording of Living to exclude light spirit, dark spirit and eternal sith spirit into the description would do it prevent transferring into it.
And introduce other weird interactions, either now or in the future.
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Sithborg wrote:fingersandteeth wrote:
This is the issue, all changing the wording of Living to exclude light spirit, dark spirit and eternal sith spirit into the description would do it prevent transferring into it.
And introduce other weird interactions, either now or in the future. What specifically do you think would happen?
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Darth_Reignir wrote:Sithborg wrote:fingersandteeth wrote:
This is the issue, all changing the wording of Living to exclude light spirit, dark spirit and eternal sith spirit into the description would do it prevent transferring into it.
And introduce other weird interactions, either now or in the future. What specifically do you think would happen? Who knows? That is part of the issue - it requires the eternal vigilance (so to speak) of rules guys overseeing design developments. That is always the case to some extent, but much more so once changes are introduced. A whole new round of analysis has to be done outside of what has been established for many years, the difference being it's all on a volunteer basis now. (I may be giving WotC more credit then they deserve, that they really thought things through...)
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