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Thank You!
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Thank you for your patience, Shmi. I didn't understand the question at first, but when I did I realized that it was something that needed to be clarified. Swinefeld's answer is the way I meant the design to go.
One thing...since characters on the skiff are removed from the board, the only way Force Renewal would work would be if they disembarked.
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Darth_Jim wrote:Thank you for your patience, Shmi. I didn't understand the question at first, but when I did I realized that it was something that needed to be clarified. Swinefeld's answer is the way I meant the design to go.
One thing...since characters on the skiff are removed from the board, the only way Force Renewal would work would be if they disembarked. Ok.... So now I am confused. So Swinefeld's most recent post regarding the rules are correct, minus being able to use Force Renewal?
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I'm not saying he isn't correct. I'm merely saying that there would be no way to gain force renewal while on the skiff because characters can't activate unless they disembark. The other ways to leave the skiff would be to either leave at the beginning of the round, as other transports, (which wouldn't activate the character) or when the skiff is destroyed, which also in itself doesn't activate the character.
It is my understanding that while on the skiff (and removed from the board), they can't be activated unless they are disembarked.
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Darth_Jim wrote:I'm not saying he isn't correct. I'm merely saying that there would be no way to gain force renewal while on the skiff because characters can't activate unless they disembark. The other ways to leave the skiff would be to either leave at the beginning of the round, as other transports, (which wouldn't activate the character) or when the skiff is destroyed, which also in itself doesn't activate the character.
It is my understanding that while on the skiff (and removed from the board), they can't be activated unless they are disembarked. I wonder how man Force Points Caedus gained in Ohio while on the Skiff then?
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Darth_Jim wrote:I'm not saying he isn't correct. I'm merely saying that there would be no way to gain force renewal while on the skiff because characters can't activate unless they disembark. The other ways to leave the skiff would be to either leave at the beginning of the round, as other transports, (which wouldn't activate the character) or when the skiff is destroyed, which also in itself doesn't activate the character.
It is my understanding that while on the skiff (and removed from the board), they can't be activated unless they are disembarked. This part is incorrect. You do activate characters on the skiff. They just can't do anything. All of their abilities are suppressed (including Force Renewal) and they can't be affected by basically anything. You just can't do much of anything. All of their special abilities are suppressed and they can't attack. (My mistake. See below.)
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FlyingArrow wrote:Darth_Jim wrote:I'm not saying he isn't correct. I'm merely saying that there would be no way to gain force renewal while on the skiff because characters can't activate unless they disembark. The other ways to leave the skiff would be to either leave at the beginning of the round, as other transports, (which wouldn't activate the character) or when the skiff is destroyed, which also in itself doesn't activate the character.
It is my understanding that while on the skiff (and removed from the board), they can't be activated unless they are disembarked. This part is incorrect. You do activate characters on the skiff. They just can't do anything. All of their abilities are suppressed (including Force Renewal) and they can't be affected by basically anything. So the point of this is Force Renewal does NOT work. How many tournament games has this effected? I talked to Ultrastar, and he said they used Renewal against him in Ohio. Did this change the outcome of any games?
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They aren't on the battle grid and there's no way to count to them on the battle grid in any way, so the only thing that could possibly affect them is something rangeless. And since they can't be targeted, it would have to be a non-targeting, rangeless effect. And since they can't attack or count distance from this character, the only thing they could use would likewise have to be rangeless and non-targeting. And not their own abilitiy, either, since all their abilities are suppressed.
I know during design Jim wanted the character to basically "not exist" while on the skiff. Rules-wise, that wasn't quite workable - too many weird interactions with that sort of thing. The resulting makes it really *really* hard for anyone on the skiff to do anything or be affected by anything, though.
I think I just found one, though. If Plaguies, the Wise is *not* on the skiff, allies on the skiff would be subject to his CE - it's rangeless and non-targeting. They would gain DR10 but immediately have it suppressed so it doesn't matter. But they would get back the 10hp. Of course if Plagueis himself is on the skiff, his CE is suppressed.
I think that's right.
I'm not seeing anything else. Any ability that they'd gain would immediately be suppressed. No point to gaining Damage or Attack bonus (can't attack) or Defense bonus (can't be attacked). Can't move (not on the grid). They could be damaged, theoretically, but I can't think of any ability that is rangeless and non-targeting. Inside Information is rangeless and non-targeting but it requires the enemy be on the grid in the starting zone so even that doesn't work. They could theoretically spend an ally's Force points, but they have to use them for something. But since they aren't rerolling, can't move, and have no abilities, they can't spend an ally's Force points.
(My mistake. See below.)
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shmi15 wrote: So the point of this is Force Renewal does NOT work. How many tournament games has this effected? I talked to Ultrastar, and he said they used Renewal against him in Ohio. Did this change the outcome of any games? I can't help you with that... wasn't there. But you are correct that Force Renewal does not work while on the skiff.(My mistake. See below.)
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FlyingArrow wrote:shmi15 wrote: So the point of this is Force Renewal does NOT work. How many tournament games has this effected? I talked to Ultrastar, and he said they used Renewal against him in Ohio. Did this change the outcome of any games? I can't help you with that... wasn't there. But you are correct that Force Renewal does not work while on the skiff. Interesting... I only bring it up, because if they won ANY games while gaining Force Points, then they changed who played who in the tournament, thus giving Jason the "line up" he played, which could of altered a multitude of things. Which means Jason MAY not of won, and we would not be having this discussion of nerfing Reserves, when it all happened because no one understood what a piece COULD or COULD NOT do. What do they say about a butterfly who flaps it wings and causes a hurricane? Can I finally be on some design committee so I can prevent these things from happening? And I can ask the questions that need to be asked? 
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swinefeld wrote:NO, and NO.
Force abilities (think Bastila) are not the same thing as Force powers. Force renewal works, and spending Force to reroll the defeat save is allowed. This is by design.
You bring up an interesting point about the Sith Pawn. I believe a Sith Recruit that is NOT being transported could be sacked to reroll a defeat save.
Juice Man posted the relevant parts from Resolving Effects above.
The characters make their saves. If not defeated, they are placed adjacent to the transport. All that must be fully resolved before removing the transport, and until that happens, all the restrictions remain in effect.
Doesn't swine say here that Force Renewal works? So unless he comes back and says something different, I would say that Force Renewal does work.
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Darth_Jim wrote:It is my understanding that while on the skiff (and removed from the board), they can't be activated unless they are disembarked. The original design had them not activating but that quickly became a rules nightmare. Flyingarrow wrote:"Characters on the skiff who don't disembark have to be considered activated at some point, since that's what marks the end of the round - when all characters have been activated." The transported characters do activate, they just can't do much of anything while being transported. However, we wanted force users to be able to fprr "Reroll" the defeat save. So we allowed for that. Flyingarrow wrote:
As far as I can tell, these are the only Force powers that would have any effect while on the skiff:
Anticipation
Dark Force Spirit 1
Dark Force Spirit 2
Eternal Hatred
Force Bubble
Force Cloak
Force Focus 2 (although having it active doesn't really do anything since no other Force powers can benefit from it)
Force Renewal
Force Sacrifice
Force Sense
Force Spirit
Force Void
Force Weapon
Force Withdrawal
Jedi Battle Coordination
Master of the Force
Master Recovery
Odan-Urr's Battle Meditation (only the part about forcing others to spend a Force point)
Recovery
Sense the Future
Serenity
Transfer Essence
All others require a presence on the grid (usually to target something or affect something within a given range) or are Force Abilities/CEs.
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Jason,
You are correct. I misread it. I read it as, "their commander effects and abilities are suppressed." It says, "their commander effects, special abilities and Force abilities are suppressed".
My apologies. Force Renewal does work.
Also, I hadn't read swinefeld's post before causing all this confusion. Being the last post on a page stinks sometimes... easy to overlook it.
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urbanjedi wrote:swinefeld wrote:NO, and NO.
Force abilities (think Bastila) are not the same thing as Force powers. Force renewal works, and spending Force to reroll the defeat save is allowed. This is by design.
You bring up an interesting point about the Sith Pawn. I believe a Sith Recruit that is NOT being transported could be sacked to reroll a defeat save.
Juice Man posted the relevant parts from Resolving Effects above.
The characters make their saves. If not defeated, they are placed adjacent to the transport. All that must be fully resolved before removing the transport, and until that happens, all the restrictions remain in effect.
Doesn't swine say here that Force Renewal works? He is the ultimate authority on rules interactions around these parts. So unless he comes back and says something different, I would say that Force Renewal does in fact work. EDIT. I wrote this before seeing the other responses, from Dark Dracul and Flying Arrow
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DarkDracul wrote:Darth_Jim wrote:It is my understanding that while on the skiff (and removed from the board), they can't be activated unless they are disembarked. The original design had them not activating but that quickly became a rules nightmare. Flyingarrow wrote:"Characters on the skiff who don't disembark have to be considered activated at some point, since that's what marks the end of the round - when all characters have been activated." The transported characters do activate, they just can't do much of anything while being transported. However, we wanted force users to be able to fprr "Reroll" the defeat save. So we allowed for that. Flyingarrow wrote:
As far as I can tell, these are the only Force powers that would have any effect while on the skiff:
Anticipation
Dark Force Spirit 1
Dark Force Spirit 2
Eternal Hatred
Force Bubble
Force Cloak
Force Focus 2 (although having it active doesn't really do anything since no other Force powers can benefit from it)
Force Renewal
Force Sacrifice
Force Sense
Force Spirit
Force Void
Force Weapon
Force Withdrawal
Jedi Battle Coordination
Master of the Force
Master Recovery
Odan-Urr's Battle Meditation (only the part about forcing others to spend a Force point)
Recovery
Sense the Future
Serenity
Transfer Essence
All others require a presence on the grid (usually to target something or affect something within a given range) or are Force Abilities/CEs.
Thanks, thats a very useful tool.
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FlyingArrow wrote:Jason,
You are correct. I misread it. I read it as, "their commander effects and abilities are suppressed." It says, "their commander effects, special abilities and Force abilities are suppressed".
My apologies. Force Renewal does work. I don't really care what the ruling is, just want to make sure that we (and everyone) is playing it correctly. Really a bummer to find out after the fact, that you played something wrong and either won or lost when it could have gone differently because of a rules mis-interpretation.
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shmi15 wrote:They said they wanted it to be as if the piece "did not exist" I'm not familiar with a piece that does not exist, that gains Force Points?
That was what he was going for, but rules-wise we couldn't make it work to have them go away completely. The restrictions as written in Large Transport are what they are. I apologize for causing confusion. I had misread Large Transport as saying "abilities" (which would include special abilities and Force powers) instead of "special abilities and Force abilities". Force abilities just includes things like Bastila, etc.
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urbanjedi wrote:DarkDracul wrote:Darth_Jim wrote:It is my understanding that while on the skiff (and removed from the board), they can't be activated unless they are disembarked. The original design had them not activating but that quickly became a rules nightmare. Flyingarrow wrote:"Characters on the skiff who don't disembark have to be considered activated at some point, since that's what marks the end of the round - when all characters have been activated." The transported characters do activate, they just can't do much of anything while being transported. However, we wanted force users to be able to fprr "Reroll" the defeat save. So we allowed for that. Flyingarrow wrote:
As far as I can tell, these are the only Force powers that would have any effect while on the skiff:
Anticipation
Dark Force Spirit 1
Dark Force Spirit 2
Eternal Hatred
Force Bubble
Force Cloak
Force Focus 2 (although having it active doesn't really do anything since no other Force powers can benefit from it)
Force Renewal
Force Sacrifice
Force Sense
Force Spirit
Force Void
Force Weapon
Force Withdrawal
Jedi Battle Coordination
Master of the Force
Master Recovery
Odan-Urr's Battle Meditation (only the part about forcing others to spend a Force point)
Recovery
Sense the Future
Serenity
Transfer Essence
All others require a presence on the grid (usually to target something or affect something within a given range) or are Force Abilities/CEs.
Thanks, thats a very useful tool. Agreed. So if I understand correctly, Force Repulse would do damage to characters on a Skiff? And, last question I hope, lol, Does INdiscriminate, and Overwhelming Power/Force override the non targeting aspect of it? Take Bane Sith'Ari. If I based the skiff, and Used Overwhelming and Lighting, does everyone take damage? If I Overwhelm, and Lightsaber Sweep, do I get to attack everyone?
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Force Repulse would do damage to characters on a regular skiff but not on Barada on Skiff. That is one of the places where Desert Skiff and Large Transport differ in how they work.
Overwhelming and Indiscriminate could get past the non-targeting aspect, but since they have no board presence I can't think of a way they could target them even after getting past the non-targeting aspect.
For Large Transport, the carried characters do not count as adjacent or count distance from the skiff, so Lightning and Lightsaber Sweep can't reach them.
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I stand by how I called it, unless Jim (and the other designers) see a need to revise Large Transport.
There is virtually no way for an enemy to affect transported characters outside of non-targeting boardwide effects.
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