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Yames2.0
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2009 7:19:31 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/9/2009
Posts: 158
i didnt go to wizards of the coast cuz i dont have an account on there that i know the password to. i read them but most of the people on there are on here so i posted here cuz im almost certian id get the same response.

also i would like to say if the judge had a problem with me why didnt he say sumthing if he just told me he didnt want me to say anything i wouldnt of said anything else.
billiv15
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2009 7:21:34 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/4/2008
Posts: 1,441
Yames2.0 wrote:
But I am sorry to say i think since you wernt at the event you dont know quite how it went down. I came on here asking the questions cuz i told the judge i would and he said he would do the same. then we meet up on the next event before the turny and we tell each other what we learnd.


Nope, wasn't there. My interpretation of events comes directly from others involved in it, and from the fact that the judge was ready to quit because of you.

I am not here to fight a court battle and prove one way or the other whether you are guilty or not, just pointing out how it looks to an outsider, and what's the most likely issues.

You even said, "I got into "discussions"." with the judge. That right there directly contradicts what you are saying now.

I am sorry, but if things were as civil as you are making them out to be, then explain to me, why the judge was considering never doing that again?

No, I don't believe you, your version of events doesn't match up.

I will repeat myself. If you want rule questions, you ask them. You do not explain that a judge screwed up, or anything other than simply asking the questions. If you want answers, the way to do it without embarrassing someone is to simply ask the question on the WotC forum. No one but the parties involved needed to know the rest of this.

I did not need to be contacted by multiple people mind you, about this issue, when I was never involved in anyway. But I was, and so I responded appropriately. I really doubt that people would have sought me out for insight in how to deal with you, because you were acting appropriately. Sorry, that just doesn't jive with me.

BTW, others were contacted as well about how to deal with you.
chernan83
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2009 7:23:42 AM
Rank: Dark Trooper Phase III
Groups: Member

Joined: 6/20/2009
Posts: 25
Oh, I must be lost.

I thought this was the BlooPenPal forum.

Remind me to never throw up a post that is gonna get my head ripped off for no reason. Flapper
dalibins
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2009 7:23:59 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/9/2009
Posts: 102
billiv15 wrote:
dalibins wrote:

Now...I'm sorry but you're way off on your opinion of the guy in question and you really went out of your way to bash him. You talk of him acting 'the big bad fish' when your post is doing nothing but the exact same thing.
That's not what "Big Fish" refers to. I cannot be a "Big Fish" online by definition. If you aren't sure what I meant, then read my article on Gamer Personalities on SWMGamers.com.

dalibins wrote:
Everything he brought up needed to be questioned...was he suppose to just ignore it and just play it wrong?
Wrong. As a player in a tournament, you are forbidden by the Universal Tournament Rules to say anything that interferes with another player's match. He could have been Dqed immediately for it and removed from the store. So first, when it comes to offering his "advice" to other games going on during a tournament, he is supposed to ignore it. Now, this rule is seldom enforced, but I am quite clear from having heard from multiple people on this issue, that his advice was not asked for, was not helpful, was argumentative and was taken disrespectfully.

dalibins wrote:
And as far as the "providing cover for yourself" issue, he merely brought it up just to point it out as one of those ridiculous rules that exist in the game, not trying to show off by any means.
BS. There is absolutely 0 reason to bring this rule up with new players ever. Heck, can he even explain it properly? Or did he simply see it on the forums one day? Why doesn't it matter in 99.99% of cases?

And in fact, it is not a "rule" at all. It is a rule loophole to be precise. It's never been closed because it rarely if ever matters. I can name the one situation that is possible, but can you or he?

And with that said, the point is simple. There are 0 reasons to bring this up, at your first event with a new judge, with new players, etc. There is no reason to do so. Its confusing and none of them will understand it anyways. So in effect, bringing it up at all in that situation, has a direct negative impact on the venue, the judge, and the players. I will not excuse that practice in any way. No, he brought it up to prove how much he knew about the rules.

dalibins wrote:
Not once was he trying to "embarrass" or impress anyone with what he knows and once a ruling was made it WAS dropped until after the tourney where it was then agreed upon to look it up on the forums or contact the proper people to get the answers. In no way do I see anything hostile posted by yames so that is an invalid point too.
Post number 1 buddy. There was no reason to list them all together, or to explain that one judge did all of this, short of embarrassment and proving he was right.

The correct way to handle it would have been to consult the rulebook in private with the judge. If you needed online confirmation, then you ask Nickname on the WotC forums, and you do so without the story behind it. Nothing on Bloomilk is official, so it proves nothing to the judge. Nope, all it did was embarrass him and make the OP get his ego boost.

I'm also aware that after the event the judge was considering quitting, because of how this player treated him. Sorry, doesn't matter how you view it, or what you want to make of it, the problem is with this player and his actions. The judge in question, has been a major judge for other games in the past, and does have an understanding of how to do it, even if he needs to work some understanding.

If the guy wasn't here for an ego boost, this thread would never exist to begin with, in the way that it does. That's 100% prove, right there, that you two are wrong.



Okay so maybe I took big fish differently than you...but LOL at "heres this article I wrote about it". Now thats trying to boost your ego.

When did I say he was right in question other peoples games? No where in my post does it do that. "Everything he brought up needed to be questioned...was HE suppose to just ignore it and just PLAY it wrong?" This would imply only his own games.

And after that you're just plain wrong about him "boosting his ego" or trying to embarrass anyone. Not his intention and if it did have that effect on someone then it should have been brought to his attention and he would have apologized right then and there I guarantee it.


sorta late now but bloomilk was being slow
dalibins
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2009 7:25:45 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/9/2009
Posts: 102
chernan83 wrote:
Oh, I must be lost.

I thought this was the BlooPenPal forum.

Remind me to never throw up a post that is gonna get my head ripped off for no reason. Flapper


Ha...this man speaks the truth.
billiv15
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2009 7:27:33 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/4/2008
Posts: 1,441
I will also add, that everyone I have heard from thought you were bragging repeatedly, about how you played here or there, against so and so and so on. I will tell you one thing, when I go to a new venue, I do not start out week one saying, "Well I am Billiv15......" I simply show up, play the game, am polite, helpful and I try to get to know the place and the venue. I've had people quite shocked to find out who I am later.

I love that you brought up the newbies as your excuse for your behavior. Sorry, bud, that is not how you model good behavior for newbies. You do not embarrass people in public, you do not argue rules issues, even when the judge is wrong. You pull out your rulebook/glossary/FAQ and show them the correct rule, before they make the ruling. And once the ruling is made, that's it. You certainly don't argue with him about other people's games, and you don't go online and post about it afterwards.

I don't believe for a second you care one bit about newbies. Again, your behavior even in this thread tells me otherwise. Sorry, your best bet at this point is to shut up about it, apologize the judge in private, and not act like that again. There really is no reason to argue with me about it.
dalibins
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2009 7:36:58 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/9/2009
Posts: 102
billiv15 wrote:
I will also add, that everyone I have heard from thought you were bragging repeatedly, about how you played here or there, against so and so and so on. I will tell you one thing, when I go to a new venue, I do not start out week one saying, "Well I am Billiv15......" I simply show up, play the game, am polite, helpful and I try to get to know the place and the venue. I've had people quite shocked to find out who I am later.

I love that you brought up the newbies as your excuse for your behavior. Sorry, bud, that is not how you model good behavior for newbies. You do not embarrass people in public, you do not argue rules issues, even when the judge is wrong. You pull out your rulebook/glossary/FAQ and show them the correct rule, before they make the ruling. And once the ruling is made, that's it. You certainly don't argue with him about other people's games, and you don't go online and post about it afterwards.

I don't believe for a second you care one bit about newbies. Again, your behavior even in this thread tells me otherwise. Sorry, your best bet at this point is to shut up about it, apologize the judge in private, and not act like that again. There really is no reason to argue with me about it.


Claiming he doesn't care about "newbies" is just stupid. We are group of only 3 people who play from our town. We were overjoyed to learn that just a half hour away there were more players and people who were actually excited about the game. How would any kind of logic permit someone to burn that bridge? It is not in his nature, nor is it in any of ours.

In the end YOU. WERE. NOT. THERE.You have a moderate idea of the situation but you have very little grasp of this person you are just outright insulting.

I'll admit that him and the judge need to sit down and talk. Definitely needs to happen. But if anyone deserves an apology its yames and it should come from you.
Yames2.0
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2009 7:44:07 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/9/2009
Posts: 158
billiv15 wrote:
I will also add, that everyone I have heard from thought you were bragging repeatedly, about how you played here or there, against so and so and so on. I will tell you one thing, when I go to a new venue, I do not start out week one saying, "Well I am Billiv15......" I simply show up, play the game, am polite, helpful and I try to get to know the place and the venue. I've had people quite shocked to find out who I am later.

I love that you brought up the newbies as your excuse for your behavior. Sorry, bud, that is not how you model good behavior for newbies. You do not embarrass people in public, you do not argue rules issues, even when the judge is wrong. You pull out your rulebook/glossary/FAQ and show them the correct rule, before they make the ruling. And once the ruling is made, that's it. You certainly don't argue with him about other people's games, and you don't go online and post about it afterwards.

I don't believe for a second you care one bit about newbies. Again, your behavior even in this thread tells me otherwise. Sorry, your best bet at this point is to shut up about it, apologize the judge in private, and not act like that again. There really is no reason to argue with me about it.


i dont rember bragging i rember saying i seen it done this way here my record of places i have played isnt very big so theres nothing to brag about. I also didnt show up and say Well im such and such one person asked me where i had played at. Also i do care about the newer players they are our lifeblood without them this game cant go on. And i was polite after every game i said good game good luck next round. I would tell people i like what they had going there if i did and if they wanted to we talk about game changing initives and things of that sort. If i disrespect anyone in anyway i would apoligize in public infront of everyone cuz i never meant any harm my action could of been misinturpted. And i will say agian if the judge had ever told me to not say anything i would of.
turkveal
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2009 8:05:03 AM
Rank: TIE Crawler
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/9/2009
Posts: 44
this is being taken way too serious, there is never a reason to get this heated over a game, in the end its for fun. and the minute people start throwing out "you violated this, people were being contacted in how to deal with you." its not fun anymore. I know all parties involved so when i say no one was trying to embarrass anyone i mean it, i do know. so come on its a game HAVE FUN. the amount of players around here is small as is we don't need them getting divided bc of something dumb like this.
billiv15
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2009 8:33:14 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/4/2008
Posts: 1,441
dalibins wrote:

In the end YOU. WERE. NOT. THERE.You have a moderate idea of the situation but you have very little grasp of this person you are just outright insulting.


Meh, really wasn't being insulting there. And your right, I wasn't there. That doesn't mean that I should be ignoring people who I don't know approaching me in private about an issue. And when your buddy posted it the way he did on here, it becomes a public issue.

I just put the pieces together and talked to people about it to determine what was happening. I also know Gamer personalities (that was the point of talking about my article, because the definition of "Big Fish" I was using is covered there).

@Yames - I suggest your first order of business is to talk to the judge and deal with it with him personally. I don't think it's all that important to defend yourself to me, as I am not really emotionally involved with it. I don't care if you are the nicest guy in the world, or a jerk really.

@Turkveal - I'm sorry, when a judge is ready to quit judging that is serious. Trying to pretend it's not and deflecting it only furthers to hurt people who have been wronged. There is no need to try to make it sound like less than it was, my perspective on it is not out of whack. Actually, I have no horse in this race.

Even if you don't think there was a problem, clearly there was. My question to you is why are you wasting time defending your buddy to me who has 0 interest in this issue, and in deflecting the issue as if it was nothing, instead of dealing with the situation at hand.

The original post in this thread is insulting and embarrassing to the judge. Why do you think telling me "this is being taken way too serious" is a good idea? Why not start with telling your buddy to ask Shinja to close it, or to talk to the judge, or to delete his post completely. Those would be much more productive responses.
Yames2.0
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2009 8:35:22 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/9/2009
Posts: 158
Simon_kaos wrote:
I'd like to say a few things about this as im the judge in question. first I havent judged in a few years, two be exact, so im playing catch up on rules that have been clarified since my time away (didnt stay up to date). second all rules that i have ruled on have been fairly done with the knowledge ive had at the time. now lets get a few things straight. I was wrong on some of the rules that have changed in the time and i have come back to the venue and corrected the rules i have been wrong about.

Yames2.0, you say you played this map at the tourney, thats untrue you played the Attack on Endor Commander's Office map first round and third round, Rebel Storm Ultimate Missions Mos Eisley map the second, so when did you play this map? and id like to point out, that i brought the maps 14 of them so the new members had maps to play on.

and now to Darth O if you are going to attack me for my judging skill, i say come to the venue and talk to me, im a pretty nice guy and love to hear feed back as well as give it.

now dont get me wrong im in no way complaining but thought i deserved the chance to have my say as well.



you have your say of couse, i never meant you disrespect im sorry if i did im looking forward to seeing you firday and no i didnt say i played it at the turny i guess you took that as implied, i said i played on it, which i have i own the map and me and sum friends playd some fun games once and one choose to use it and i hated it the entire time i was on it. sorry i didnt see you had posted on here or i would of replied sooner and i dont think darth O attack was neccary at all im sorry my post made that come i never meant it to turn into this i just wanted a few clarifactions and i thanked you then and will agian for bringing the maps that time.

and this is being taken way to seriusly turk and i think Simon_kaos lets leave this as is on the forums and we can talk friday or sumthing.
billiv15
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2009 8:37:22 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/4/2008
Posts: 1,441
Yames2.0 wrote:

turk and i think Simon_kaos lets leave this as is on the forums and we can talk friday or sumthing.


There is the right response. Thank you. I consider that a good closure to the issue.
dnemiller
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2009 9:29:20 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/2/2008
Posts: 538
Location: GC, Missouri
Well this is certainly an ugly incident and I am not talking about the posts on these forums.

Yames I feel for you. You have called out this judge for violating game rules when judging but the sad part is you did not bother to read the floor rules for the same event. You sir are equally guilty of not knowing the rules. In fact you should have been disqualified and if you behavior then did not cease you could have been banned from the DCI altogether for arguing with a judge after being Disqualified. You would have made history too because not one Star Wars player has ever been banned.

Whether you like the judges rulings or not doesnt matter. For that tournament whether he missed a couple of points on the rules or not doesnt matter. Unfortunately he was right that day. Someone asked a question he made a ruling.... Period. No did he get some of them wrong? Yes. Did you quietly discuss it with him? It appears you just came here and looked like you wanted make him personally look bad. If not why post that a judge made these rulings. Why not just post your rules questions and then send him a message asking him to look at the correct answers? You did not do that you apparently wanted to embarass the guy.

You griped about the maps. He brought what he had for new players. Did you bring a map? If not you should not say anything. He could have dq'd you for not having the necessary tournament materials as spelled out in the floor rules. It sounds like to me this guy went above and beyond the call of duty. He brought maps for the new players, he gave up his free time to judge so you guys could have a DCI tourney. What did you do for the good of the game on that day?

Wow!!! I must say I am so disappointed on so many levels. The one thing I am not disappointed about though is the judge. He did best and if you would give him time and try to help him, you would probably end up with a terrific judge for the venue. But it seems you were so worried about being right and proving that you knew more than him that you almost drove him away. That is certainly not going to grow the game in your area is it?

As the Content Manager who works over and with the judges I cannot say that happy with the players that did this to the judge at this venue. Please don't come to Gencon and act this way. Judges are human who make mistakes and apparently you are too because posting on here about this is a mistake and a bad one.

By the way the granting yourself cover is not a rule. It is a intepretation of a rule made by Nickname. Meaning until it shows up in the Rulebook, Errata or FAQ it is just an opinion (although a well informed one). As the head judge at Gencon I will not be going by that opinion. It has nothing to do with me not liking Nickname or disagreeing. I find that it is confusing at best and only arises in one situation in a million so I will not rule that. By the way I will not be wrong for ruling it that way either. Just like your judge even though he made a mistake or two was not wrong. he made the call he made and you have to live with it. I guess you would argue with an umpire or ref if you disagreed with their call in a game that you were playing in. That doesnt get the call changed and generally just gets you thrown out of the game. If that had happened at the venue the other day the judge would have been within his rights. You should read the rules also before trying embarass someone.

This whole thing is just sad in my very well informed opinion.
dalibins
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2009 10:03:50 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/9/2009
Posts: 102
dnemiller wrote:
Well this is certainly an ugly incident and I am not talking about the posts on these forums.

Yames I feel for you. You have called out this judge for violating game rules when judging but the sad part is you did not bother to read the floor rules for the same event. You sir are equally guilty of not knowing the rules. In fact you should have been disqualified and if you behavior then did not cease you could have been banned from the DCI altogether for arguing with a judge after being Disqualified. You would have made history too because not one Star Wars player has ever been banned.

Whether you like the judges rulings or not doesnt matter. For that tournament whether he missed a couple of points on the rules or not doesnt matter. Unfortunately he was right that day. Someone asked a question he made a ruling.... Period. No did he get some of them wrong? Yes. Did you quietly discuss it with him? It appears you just came here and looked like you wanted make him personally look bad. If not why post that a judge made these rulings. Why not just post your rules questions and then send him a message asking him to look at the correct answers? You did not do that you apparently wanted to embarass the guy.

You griped about the maps. He brought what he had for new players. Did you bring a map? If not you should not say anything. He could have dq'd you for not having the necessary tournament materials as spelled out in the floor rules. It sounds like to me this guy went above and beyond the call of duty. He brought maps for the new players, he gave up his free time to judge so you guys could have a DCI tourney. What did you do for the good of the game on that day?

Wow!!! I must say I am so disappointed on so many levels. The one thing I am not disappointed about though is the judge. He did best and if you would give him time and try to help him, you would probably end up with a terrific judge for the venue. But it seems you were so worried about being right and proving that you knew more than him that you almost drove him away. That is certainly not going to grow the game in your area is it?

As the Content Manager who works over and with the judges I cannot say that happy with the players that did this to the judge at this venue. Please don't come to Gencon and act this way. Judges are human who make mistakes and apparently you are too because posting on here about this is a mistake and a bad one.

By the way the granting yourself cover is not a rule. It is a intepretation of a rule made by Nickname. Meaning until it shows up in the Rulebook, Errata or FAQ it is just an opinion (although a well informed one). As the head judge at Gencon I will not be going by that opinion. It has nothing to do with me not liking Nickname or disagreeing. I find that it is confusing at best and only arises in one situation in a million so I will not rule that. By the way I will not be wrong for ruling it that way either. Just like your judge even though he made a mistake or two was not wrong. he made the call he made and you have to live with it. I guess you would argue with an umpire or ref if you disagreed with their call in a game that you were playing in. That doesnt get the call changed and generally just gets you thrown out of the game. If that had happened at the venue the other day the judge would have been within his rights. You should read the rules also before trying embarass someone.

This whole thing is just sad in my very well informed opinion.


We've already agreed to work this out with our judge...please don't drag this out again.
Simon_kaos
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2009 10:17:31 AM
Rank: Ugnaught Demolitionist
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/19/2009
Posts: 3
as the judge in this mess id like to say im not mad at Yames2.0, i felt i was on the block and wanted my voice also heard. i have no bad feelings in this i have said im relearning rules while we are playing. as far as im in this i consider this subject closed.

yames,
i look forward to seeing you and your friends friday night. as i have said if you give me time and understanding we will grow our minis players and have a great venue to play at.
kenred2
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2009 10:32:37 AM
Rank: Sith Marauder
Groups: Member

Joined: 11/4/2008
Posts: 899
Location: Farmingdale, NY
As a DCI Rules Advisor and a judge at my LGS, I understand your position. Keep in mind, that you have to read these important documents:
-Clone Wars Starter Rule book
-A link to Star Wars Miniatures Floor Rules
-And most of all, keep checking on Star Wars Minis Rules on WOTC forum
Rules Issues Hot List

It is a great way to understand the game and allows you to prepare a better judgment when you or the players running into certain issues.
Doogle126
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2009 2:22:41 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 1/21/2009
Posts: 406
billiv15 wrote:
I will also add, that everyone I have heard from thought you were bragging repeatedly, about how you played here or there, against so and so and so on. I will tell you one thing, when I go to a new venue, I do not start out week one saying, "Well I am Billiv15......" I simply show up, play the game, am polite, helpful and I try to get to know the place and the venue. I've had people quite shocked to find out who I am later.

I love that you brought up the newbies as your excuse for your behavior. Sorry, bud, that is not how you model good behavior for newbies. You do not embarrass people in public, you do not argue rules issues, even when the judge is wrong. You pull out your rulebook/glossary/FAQ and show them the correct rule, before they make the ruling. And once the ruling is made, that's it. You certainly don't argue with him about other people's games, and you don't go online and post about it afterwards.

I don't believe for a second you care one bit about newbies. Again, your behavior even in this thread tells me otherwise. Sorry, your best bet at this point is to shut up about it, apologize the judge in private, and not act like that again. There really is no reason to argue with me about it.



ahhhhhhhhhh, this bring me back to the-not-so-long-ago GOWK fights, where everyone was being politely rude to each other Flapper
Eroschilles
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2009 2:24:21 PM
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member , Moderator

Joined: 8/24/2008
Posts: 812
Location: Parkville, MD
Doogle126 wrote:
billiv15 wrote:
I will also add, that everyone I have heard from thought you were bragging repeatedly, about how you played here or there, against so and so and so on. I will tell you one thing, when I go to a new venue, I do not start out week one saying, "Well I am Billiv15......" I simply show up, play the game, am polite, helpful and I try to get to know the place and the venue. I've had people quite shocked to find out who I am later.

I love that you brought up the newbies as your excuse for your behavior. Sorry, bud, that is not how you model good behavior for newbies. You do not embarrass people in public, you do not argue rules issues, even when the judge is wrong. You pull out your rulebook/glossary/FAQ and show them the correct rule, before they make the ruling. And once the ruling is made, that's it. You certainly don't argue with him about other people's games, and you don't go online and post about it afterwards.

I don't believe for a second you care one bit about newbies. Again, your behavior even in this thread tells me otherwise. Sorry, your best bet at this point is to shut up about it, apologize the judge in private, and not act like that again. There really is no reason to argue with me about it.



ahhhhhhhhhh, this bring me back to the-not-so-long-ago GOWK fights, where everyone was being politely rude to each other Flapper


I missed the polite part in all that... Blink
Doogle126
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2009 2:28:31 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 1/21/2009
Posts: 406
well notice how well worded his rudeness is No Bloo Milk
Doogle126
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2009 2:30:31 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 1/21/2009
Posts: 406
oh, and by the way billiv15, you have no right to tell others how to run their lives Angry
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