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jen'ari wrote:I think the Togorian should be changed as well tbh I feel as if the change should just be they gain grenade launcher and not grenades 30. This could also be pretty cool - just gaining Grenade Launcher would allow designing room for a specific Black Sun Grenadier or something like that. So if you want a grenade swarm, go for it, but it'll just be 10 damage. If you want to do some serious damage, pull in the guy who was specifically given Grenades 30. Probably want a little of both. Part of the problem of this whole swarm vs. not-swarm mechanic is how each individual game should play out - the more pieces you have, the more it plays out like an epic large-scale battle. The fewer pieces you have, the more it plays out like a fight scene in a superhero movie. On top of that, I think it's safe to say it's a lot harder to fine-tune swarm squads than non-swarm squads. For a swarm to be competitive, it comes down to being able to dish out X damage per grunt. If you have 20 attackers, just increasing damage output from 20 to 30 or from 30 to 40 is an increase in 200 damage per round. Also, when your attackers range in the 30-50 pt range, there isn't a whole lot of room for optimization - you might be able to squeeze in a couple extra Ugnaughts or something. But when your attackers are 4 points, getting rid of less-useful Commanders or tech pieces can give you an extra 4-6 attackers, which is fairly significant.
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FlyingArrow wrote:10 Grans and 10 Klat Thugs wouldn't make much difference. It would have helped with other rediculous squads. Snow troopers, mouse spamming and what not. Your right that in some cases it would not have much of an effect. Handing out boosts to non-uniques is just a bad call in a majority of cases
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Darth_Frenchy wrote:FlyingArrow wrote:10 Grans and 10 Klat Thugs wouldn't make much difference. It would have helped with other rediculous squads. Snow troopers, mouse spamming and what not. Your right that in some cases it would not have much of an effect. Handing out boosts to non-uniques is just a bad call in a majority of cases I disagree. I just think they need to cost more than gambit to be competitive. I come off as anti swarm. But I am a fan of it when they cost enough. 3-8 points I just don't see it. 9 points is pushing it. 10 points, as long as it requires enough tech, and its not a complete NPE, than whatever.
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I say, just put a cap on the amount of same named characters at like 10 and they're all fixed
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Caedus wrote:So there has been some talk about the Togorian Black Sun Vigo being an extreme NPE and possibly Broken. I believe the fix may be simpler than that. While looking at McNizzle's Squad
--Noob Tube--
34 Nom Anor
24 Togorian Black Sun Vigo
23 Nautolan Black Sun Vigo
11 Givin Black Sun Slicer
108 Gran Raider x27
(200pts. 31 activations)
Which is BRILLIANT, btw, the Togorian isn't really the issue here as much as the Black Sun SA given out by the Nautolan BSV
Black Sun
Card Text
If a character whose name contains Xizor or Vigo is in the same squad, this character gains Grenades 10
Glossary Text
If it is in the same squad as a character whose name contains Vigo or Xizor, this character gains the Grenades 10 special ability. The character retains this bonus ability even if the other character is not currently in play (defeated, delayed entry to the battle map, and so on).
Characters whose names contain Black Sun also count as Black Sun for purposes of effects but do not gain the other benefits of the Black Sun ability.
What if, we simply changed the Glossary and card text to say "If a Unique character whose name contains Xizor or Vigo is in the same squad, this character gains Grenades 10?
That would mean you would have to add at least 30pts to this squad, reducing the Acts by at least 7 to get this particular desired effect. Yes I know, we currently don't have any Unique BSV characters, but that opens some ideas up for designers and puts the cost check in so this can't or wont happen again. Also, maybe put a within 6 range on Grenade Launcher. Just my 2 Cents.
Above all else, please keep the discussions civil and on Topic. I will ask swinefeld to lock the post if someone starts attacking designers, squads, or other players, even passive-aggressively. Thank You I have personally played against this squad. It is brutal. McNizzle is my son. As soon as I saw how he broke yet another piece (See 'Dirty Little Smuggler'...we had to revise the Tantive IV Trooper after that one) I brought it to the attention of the Balance Committee. We've been discussing it for a few weeks now and have had some good suggestions on correcting it. We actually voted on those suggestions yesterday, but I haven't discussed how we release that and when it comes into effect. Although I've been on the Balance Committee for some time, I've never been a part of releasing that information before and I don't want to usurp anyone's job here. I will be out for most of today, so if any member of the balance team wants to pick up the ball and post I am fine. I will post on the Balance Team group's Facebook page and see if we can get this out. My only concern at this point is if someone who has already registered for the Vassal Regional is utilizing this mechanic in question would be blindsided by a late ruling like this. (I know my son and I are planning on registering, but I don't know if he has yet or even if he plans on running this squad if he did.I was away all day yesterday visiting my other son and haven't been in contact with him.)
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Sunday, September 10th, 2017
Balance Committee: Errata
Togorian Black Sun Vigo
Black Sun allies with Grenades 10 gain Grenades 30 and Grenade Launcher.
Black Sun Commanders gain Grenades 30 and Grenade Launcher.
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DarkDracul wrote:Sunday, September 10th, 2017
Balance Committee: Errata
Togorian Black Sun Vigo
Black Sun allies with Grenades 10 gain Grenades 30 and Grenade Launcher.
Black Sun Commanders gain Grenades 30 and Grenade Launcher. I don't mean to start a heated discussion, but this is kind of frustrating. We have yet to see this Squad dominate at all and it has been nerfed into oblivion due to outrageous spam. When do we snip this... 27 Admiral Daala 20 Admiral Piett 16 Admiral Gilad Pellaeon 28 Imperial Officer x2 14 Stormtrooper on Repulsor Sled 26 Elite Scout Trooper x2 11 Captain Needa 8 Mas Amedda 20 Imperial Dignitary x4 5 Killik Drone 25 Raxus Prime Trooper x5 (200pts. 20 activations) or this... 27 Admiral Daala 21 General Veers 20 Admiral Piett 28 Imperial Officer x2 14 Stormtrooper on Repulsor Sled 26 Elite Scout Trooper x2 11 Admiral Ozzel 8 Mas Amedda 10 Imperial Dignitary x2 25 Raxus Prime Trooper x5 3 Mouse Droid 6 Ugnaught Demolitionist x2 (199pts. 20 activations) this... 27 Admiral Daala 16 Admiral Gilad Pellaeon 14 Imperial Officer 14 Scout Trooper Officer 14 Stormtrooper on Repulsor Sled 39 Elite Scout Trooper x3 11 Admiral Ozzel 8 Mas Amedda 50 Imperial Dignitary x10 3 Mouse Droid 3 Ugnaught Demolitionist (199pts. 22 activations) It is the same squad with blasters. Let's be honest and call a Spade a Spade
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Caedus wrote:I don't mean to start a heated discussion, but this is kind of frustrating. We have yet to see this Squad dominate at all and it has been nerfed into oblivion due to outrageous spam. When do we snip this...
Balance Committee discussions recently began following GenCon 2017. Multiple requests have been made for us to make rulings, in regards to swarms, prior to this new fall season and vassal regional. Unfortunately, there's not a reasonable amount of time for us to render all our final conclusions for next year. We are still in discussions on multiple issues, including Daala. Togorian Black Sun Vigo was the one and only topic we were prepared to render a decision on at this time. The Black Sun Grenade Swarm has been around for several years. It has won at least one major tournament and more importantly became well-established as an NPE. After discussion the Balance Committee was 6/1 in favor of changing Togorian's CE to "Black Sun Commanders."
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NPEs: Vong Swarms Daala Mandos Activation control Thrawn swap Strafe Naboo Cloaked Super Stealth Non-uniques All of these are NPEs for a few or many, but, every NPE has adherents. Nerf to many too hard and people leave. My two cents. 
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Caedus wrote:I don't mean to start a heated discussion, but this is kind of frustrating. We have yet to see this Squad dominate at all and it has been nerfed into oblivion due to outrageous spam. When do we snip this...
DAALA
It is the same squad with blasters. Let's be honest and call a Spade a Spade What would you suggest doing about Daala? She's kind of tricky, since she's already been errata'd twice.
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Daala is very tricky. Thats why a floor rule errata would work better. You may only have 5 copies of any non unique under 9 points.
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Something along those lines is the only way without just banning Daala altogether
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Caedus wrote:I don't mean to start a heated discussion, but this is kind of frustrating. We have yet to see this Squad dominate at all and it has been nerfed into oblivion due to outrageous spam. When do we snip this...
27 Admiral Daala
20 Admiral Piett
16 Admiral Gilad Pellaeon
28 Imperial Officer x2
14 Stormtrooper on Repulsor Sled
26 Elite Scout Trooper x2
11 Captain Needa
8 Mas Amedda
20 Imperial Dignitary x4
5 Killik Drone
25 Raxus Prime Trooper x5
(200pts. 20 activations)
or this...
27 Admiral Daala
21 General Veers
20 Admiral Piett
28 Imperial Officer x2
14 Stormtrooper on Repulsor Sled
26 Elite Scout Trooper x2
11 Admiral Ozzel
8 Mas Amedda
10 Imperial Dignitary x2
25 Raxus Prime Trooper x5
3 Mouse Droid
6 Ugnaught Demolitionist x2
(199pts. 20 activations)
this...
27 Admiral Daala
16 Admiral Gilad Pellaeon
14 Imperial Officer
14 Scout Trooper Officer
14 Stormtrooper on Repulsor Sled
39 Elite Scout Trooper x3
11 Admiral Ozzel
8 Mas Amedda
50 Imperial Dignitary x10
3 Mouse Droid
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist
(199pts. 22 activations)
It is the same squad with blasters. Let's be honest and call a Spade a Spade Those are three different squads, and all quite different from McNizzle's Suicide Squad. Biggest difference with Suicide Squad is Nom Anor... superstealth and Self-Destruct means melee has to take damage to kill them (unless you can disrupt it somehow). Two of those squads have Superstealth or access to it. All have Diplomats (which present their own tricky problem), but none have Self-Destruct. Other big difference is just the sheer number. 27 grunts is a big difference compared to 10-14 attackers the squads above have. A cleaner comparison for Suicide Squad would be Bare Bones Snowtroopers, where you could run about 21-22 Snowtroopers with Daala, Snow Officer, and Snow Commander. They charge in for +12/30 or +16/40dmg. Similar max dmg output, but actually better at getting it to stick unless the enemy has evade or something. But again, no superstealth or self-destruct. Snowtroopers got 2 errata (both Daala and the Snowtrooper Officer), to the point that I don't think they're viable anymore. Best Bare Bones Daala squad now would be Raxus Prime. You can get 22 or so, but they max out at +13 instead of +16 like the Snows.
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shmi15 wrote:Daala is very tricky. Thats why a floor rule errata would work better. You may only have 5 copies of any non unique under 9 points.
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Something along those lines is the only way without just banning Daala altogether Would that even work with Daala? They have three viable 5 point pieces - Raxus, Dignitary, Vanilla Stormtrooper - that you could just mix and match without losing much.
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TheHutts wrote:shmi15 wrote:Daala is very tricky. Thats why a floor rule errata would work better. You may only have 5 copies of any non unique under 9 points.
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Something along those lines is the only way without just banning Daala altogether Would that even work with Daala? They have three viable 5 point pieces - Raxus, Dignitary, Vanilla Stormtrooper - that you could just mix and match without losing much. I didn't say thats exactly what I would do, it was just an idea of what could be done. Make the max number 4. That makes 1 less Raxus, and and make them spend more for another guy, or just lose an attacker altogether. If it were me, I would ban Daala, she has been errata'd twice, and is still an issue. Apparently her intial design was worse than we thought, as changing her twice hasn't really done anything. Or, you could simply get rid of charging fire. Take away the actual deep strike part of it. Daala is a unique problem, as so far, nothing they have changed has gotten away from the actual problem. i would ask ATM, and say, hey man, you seem to be the best Daala player, what would hurt your squad the most to lose. And then get rid of that. 
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Daala's tough as you get:
- a movement breaker (Charging Fire)
- a damage and attack boost that's not disruptable (Prideful)
- access to a lot of other great Imperial CEs (tempo, cannon shots, cunning, opportunist)
- force immunity, so you can ignore Bastila to some extent, and punch through tanks
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You only punch through Sith tanks because they rely on Illusion. With the balance team ruling on Ysalamiri, LSDefense and the like can be used against enemies shooting out of the bubble. Although if you get Pellaeon up close enough that will still shut them off.
I did not play against Daala/Etienne at GenCon. I know he went undefeated, but winning GenCon doesn't mean a squad is a problem - something has to win. Was there a particular complaint from the people who played against him? Lots of blowouts? Is it unstoppable?
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Sorry about the mess.
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Change to daala should be ce should be for pieces with base 20 damage and it should be charging assault instead of fire
Well done balance committee!
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McNizzle wrote:Sorry about the mess. Take pride in the mess. Anybody can win a skirmish. You gotta break something to get nerfed.
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Heck, I vote to reduce Daala's cost to 15 and change prideful to a CE. That would be a great move, IMO, of course.
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