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In the same way that scissors pieces keep swarms in check, blast bugs do help keep extreme rock in check. You always have to be careful checking extremes because the flip side may be just as bad or worse. In this case I do not think the flip side would be as bad, but only time will tell.
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Darth_Frenchy wrote:In the same way that scissors pieces keep swarms in check, blast bugs do help keep extreme rock in check. You always have to be careful checking extremes because the flip side may be just as bad or worse. In this case I do not think the flip side would be as bad, but only time will tell. This is false. Swarms can beat scissors, we have all seen it many times. Extreme Rock CAN NOT beat Blast Bugs. Because the luck of the dice is taken away from it. And I can go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on about how Extreme Rock is kept in check without Vong Blast Bugs. If you'd like to challenge me, throw an idea you think only Blast Bugs can deal with. And I will tell you how to beat it. The fact that you guys keep trying to argue in favor of Blast Bugs in anyway is baffling. Put a save of 11 on it. Thats not extreme. Thats simple, and exactly how the ability should've been created to begin with. The idea that the Vong have been designed with any real thought process is hilarious. Here is the thought process. "How can we screw over Force Users? Make swarms of non uniques who have Force Immunity and make them do auto damage from 8 squares with Mobile attack. BRILLIANT! Now, no matter what, we can't bend on this design. Lets fight it with every breathe, and tell everyone they don't understand the game as well as us." ( This is how I feel Vong discussions go during design) I would love for the designer of these pieces to defend them instead of everyone else. But I don't even know who what was. They have probably left the game, and their present to us was Blast Bugs.
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jen'ari wrote:shmi15 wrote:
I agree with this statement 100%. Part of the issue I have, is that we can have data that shows squads are going to be an issue. And if the Axis of Evil like the squad, or if they don't think its an issue. Nothing happens.
Here is the way I view it, as we all keep saying, our numbers are down. We just got a tournament together, with 19 participants!! 19! And over 85% of them have an auto loss against this, and won't have a fun experience. Why do we want to get so many people excited about a tournament, just to have someone play a squad that EVERYONE knows needs to be changed. But no one changes it because they "feel" its not bad to them. At some point, you guys need to change things without data, or just not make stupid designs that are so blatantly, obviously, terrible.
I know I go on about this all the time. But Vong have, are, and will always be the worst designed faction in SWM. They have answers for anything, and everything, at a very extremely cheap cost. Most of which can be brought in through reserves to taylor it to whatever they are playing. Boardwide SA. SA/CE that extend other SA to 8 squares to get around Disruptive. How does any designer think this is good designing? Its lazy, and a complete buz kill.
Thank God they are being changed again. Maybe 2019 we can just ban these fools for good, and be done with it. Worst faction. With the worst designs.
Yes, but playtesting set 15 I played unique Vong, and it was fun. just want to throw that out there. I think set 15 made Unique Vong fun and had success with the holocrons. The thing is that Unique Vong are melee and get into the action. but without the benefit of having the force. So it offsets itself decently well imo. I think tier 1.5 Unique Vong with a careful close to tier 1 build in there would be wonderful and fun. They have damage boosts and evade and a few movement breakers, but nothing over the top and starting with 10 base levels things out pretty nicely. i just think that non-unique vong have too much melee force user hate to be warranted, desired, or fun. So, I am with you Non-unique Vong are the worst non-unique builds and should not be viable at all. I am also with you that we do not need hard data to know what needs changes. I am so glad people are back in the "lets play really good squads using everything the game offers" mode. The Tn vassal regional was fun, but the squads were sub-par. This feels better in terms of seeing how the game works and things. But tbh there are still more things needed to be done to see real change to letting Melee force users be competitive. Yes, I will add, I have played against the Unique Vong squads, and I enjoyed that 100 times more than any other time I have ever played them. But, as long as Non Unique Vong are better, why would anyone run the Unique Vong idea?
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Who are you arguing with? I don't see anyone defending Blast Bugs.
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FlyingArrow wrote:Who are you arguing with? I don't see anyone defending Blast Bugs. I'm not arguing Blast Bugs, as much as making a point that things need to be changed faster, and without years of NPE's before we decide to fix it. Blast Bugs and Daala are two examples of squads that are horrible designs, that should never happen again. This means designers, take note, and stop making terrible, horrible, and stupid swarm squads. Swarms are fine to have. Just not under 10 points. I will stick to that till the day I die. 9 points is a stretch, but the precedent is there for 9. Think back to WOTC swarms, and ignore the Mouse Droid swarm... Because we all agree that was a terrible thing... Rebel Commandos. And what did those pieces cost? 10 or more. Designers, stick to that, and make as many swarms as you can make to satisfy your need for activations in a squad.
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shmi15 wrote:Blast Bugs and Daala are two examples of squads that are horrible designs, that should never happen again. This means designers, take note, and stop making terrible, horrible, and stupid swarm squads. Those both came in one set, and designers haven't made anything like them since. Trust me - the entire design team is super vigilant to make sure nothing like those 2 pieces are ever made again. 1st step - don't make pieces like that. I think we've done that successfully. There were a few misteps along the way - but nothing to that degree. The power pieces since that time (for the most part) have been uniques or benefit uniques. That said - I agree that it has been slow as molasses to make these changes. And then when changes are made - they are baby changes that don't change enough. They are horrible pieces - change them more than just a nudge down and try and keep them tier one. Crack them over the head and make them power 7 or 6. If nobody plays them - THAT'S OK!!! Stuff doesn't get played frequently. Why try and keep horrible pieces competitive? Make them NOT competitive and move on. On a side note - for the love of god don't make blast bugs a save. We have WAAAAAAAYYYYYY too many saves in the game. It could be equally as bad with a save (no jedi rerolls. We've all seen luck streaks). ---> Make it for uniques only! Then it's fine. Nobody would cry if your 28pt unique used it's turn to do 20 autodamage within 6. It's cloaked 7pt pieces or 10pt super evading crab armored 40hp non uniques that are the issue. Here's what SHOULD happen (IMO) Warrior Caste Subcommader's new CE: Quote:Unique Yuuzhan Vong allies whose names contain Warrior gain Blast Bug, Razorbug and Mobile Attack. Daala's new CE: Quote:Imperial trooper allies gain Charging Assault. (Must be adjacent to attack if you've moved more than speed.) DONE Let's move on with the game and mend the horrible mistakes that have plagued us for years
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TimmerB123 wrote:shmi15 wrote:Blast Bugs and Daala are two examples of squads that are horrible designs, that should never happen again. This means designers, take note, and stop making terrible, horrible, and stupid swarm squads. Those both came in one set, and designers haven't made anything like them since. Trust me - the entire design team is super vigilant to make sure nothing like those 2 pieces are ever made again. 1st step - don't make pieces like that. I think we've done that successfully. There were a few misteps along the way - but nothing to that degree. The power pieces since that time (for the most part) have been uniques or benefit uniques. That said - I agree that it has been slow as molasses to make these changes. And then when changes are made - they are baby changes that don't change enough. They are horrible pieces - change them more than just a nudge down and try and keep them tier one. Crack them over the head and make them power 7 or 6. If nobody plays them - THAT'S OK!!! Stuff doesn't get played frequently. Why try and keep horrible pieces competitive? Make them NOT competitive and move on. On a side note - for the love of god don't make blast bugs a save. We have WAAAAAAAYYYYYY too many saves in the game. It could be equally as bad with a save (no jedi rerolls. We've all seen luck streaks). ---> Make it for uniques only! Then it's fine. Nobody would cry if your 28pt unique used it's turn to do 20 autodamage within 6. It's cloaked 7pt pieces or 10pt super evading crab armored 40hp non uniques that are the issue. Here's what SHOULD happen (IMO) Warrior Caste Subcommader's new CE: Quote:Unique Yuuzhan Vong allies whose names contain Warrior gain Blast Bug, Razorbug and Mobile Attack. Daala's new CE: Quote:Imperial trooper allies gain Charging Assault. (Must be adjacent to attack if you've moved more than speed.) DONE Let's move on with the game and mend the horrible mistakes that have plagued us for years I could cry right now.
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Haha man I understand the frustration for the bugs. I personally think they should have been worded the same as flamethrower as in just direct 20 damage so armor bubble could take them down but still overcomes the madness that is GOWK/Zannah/Entire Republic/Rebel Jedi faction haha. Vong definitely have their place but bugs could use a balance. Fix Daala, Bugs and Unkar all in one fell swoop and the people will rejoice. Heck even add Bastilla to that list and make her ABM cost more or only last until the end of the round.
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General_Grievous wrote: Heck even add Bastilla to that list and make her ABM cost more or only last until the end of the round. I would like to see that happen as well. But only to free up the faction, I have said it before, Bastila is so powerful she limits design in OR. There is a reason why OR have suffered for years. People are afraid. I like the til end of turn idea. But zallow needs a piece to accompany him and we are set. Cough cough new thon. Cough cough new Nomi Sunrider that helps the Qel-Dromas. (As unique get used more often cay is kind of dangerous) Nomi, ulic, cay, zallow, Bastila, tech.... Perfect Or new thon, vina, zallow, Bastila, atton, tech... Perfect
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jen'ari wrote:General_Grievous wrote: Heck even add Bastilla to that list and make her ABM cost more or only last until the end of the round. I would like to see that happen as well. But only to free up the faction, I have said it before, Bastila is so powerful she limits design in OR. There is a reason why OR have suffered for years. People are afraid. I like the til end of turn idea. But zallow needs a piece to accompany him and we are set. +1 I do think that Bastila was right for her time, but I agree in many ways she has hampered design since. Especially the last several years, when honest attempts have been made to give OR alternatives (Arkanian Jedi General, Covenant) We have certainly tried to add more tech (Dowutin, M-6 Droid, Antarian Tech soldier), more sub faction options (Q'Anilia, Jace Malcom), and even some power pieces (Ven) - but it is hard for anything in the OR to compete with Bastila squads. If you make them more powerful then they are too strong. Bumping her down just a smidge gives room for other OR squadtypes to be played.
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TimmerB123 wrote:jen'ari wrote:General_Grievous wrote: Heck even add Bastilla to that list and make her ABM cost more or only last until the end of the round. I would like to see that happen as well. But only to free up the faction, I have said it before, Bastila is so powerful she limits design in OR. There is a reason why OR have suffered for years. People are afraid. I like the til end of turn idea. But zallow needs a piece to accompany him and we are set. +1 I do think that Bastila was right for her time, but I agree in many ways she has hampered design since. Especially the last several years, when honest attempts have been made to give OR alternatives (Arkanian Jedi General, Covenant) We have certainly tried to add more tech (Dowutin, M-6 Droid, Antarian Tech soldier), more sub faction options (Q'Anilia, Jace Malcom), and even some power pieces (Ven) - but it is hard for anything in the OR to compete with Bastila squads. If you make them more powerful then they are too strong. Bumping her down just a smidge gives room for other OR squadtypes to be played. I agree with this so much. Bastila was good to get OR competitive. But her time is up... We need her to be toned down. But not before another option is available for us. Am I dreaming or are we all agreeing now?
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shmi15 wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:jen'ari wrote:General_Grievous wrote: Heck even add Bastilla to that list and make her ABM cost more or only last until the end of the round. I would like to see that happen as well. But only to free up the faction, I have said it before, Bastila is so powerful she limits design in OR. There is a reason why OR have suffered for years. People are afraid. I like the til end of turn idea. But zallow needs a piece to accompany him and we are set. +1 I do think that Bastila was right for her time, but I agree in many ways she has hampered design since. Especially the last several years, when honest attempts have been made to give OR alternatives (Arkanian Jedi General, Covenant) We have certainly tried to add more tech (Dowutin, M-6 Droid, Antarian Tech soldier), more sub faction options (Q'Anilia, Jace Malcom), and even some power pieces (Ven) - but it is hard for anything in the OR to compete with Bastila squads. If you make them more powerful then they are too strong. Bumping her down just a smidge gives room for other OR squadtypes to be played. I agree with this so much. Bastila was good to get OR competitive. But her time is up... We need her to be toned down. But not before another option is available for us. Am I dreaming or are we all agreeing now? Shhh enjoy the moment, it's so beautiful, at last all opinions are aligned as one. Hahaha. Time for community polling perhaps? Haha
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shmi15 wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:jen'ari wrote:General_Grievous wrote: Heck even add Bastilla to that list and make her ABM cost more or only last until the end of the round. I would like to see that happen as well. But only to free up the faction, I have said it before, Bastila is so powerful she limits design in OR. There is a reason why OR have suffered for years. People are afraid. I like the til end of turn idea. But zallow needs a piece to accompany him and we are set. +1 I do think that Bastila was right for her time, but I agree in many ways she has hampered design since. Especially the last several years, when honest attempts have been made to give OR alternatives (Arkanian Jedi General, Covenant) We have certainly tried to add more tech (Dowutin, M-6 Droid, Antarian Tech soldier), more sub faction options (Q'Anilia, Jace Malcom), and even some power pieces (Ven) - but it is hard for anything in the OR to compete with Bastila squads. If you make them more powerful then they are too strong. Bumping her down just a smidge gives room for other OR squadtypes to be played. I agree with this so much. Bastila was good to get OR competitive. But her time is up... We need her to be toned down. But not before another option is available for us. Am I dreaming or are we all agreeing now? I think most agree about blast bugs and Daala. To a lesser extent Bastila, since she hasn't significantly impacted the competitive scene since 2013. I think Arkanian Jedi General squads are a legit option, Bryan hole barely missed the top 8 at GenCon a few years back with one (and that was when we had significantly more players in the tournament than the last couple of years.) But people rarely consider other OR options because of her.
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Oh I forgot - Bastila's ABM needs to stop at the end of the round AND she needs to start with 2 force points instead of 3.
That's all that would need to happen and she'd be just right
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General_Grievous wrote:shmi15 wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:jen'ari wrote:General_Grievous wrote: Heck even add Bastilla to that list and make her ABM cost more or only last until the end of the round. I would like to see that happen as well. But only to free up the faction, I have said it before, Bastila is so powerful she limits design in OR. There is a reason why OR have suffered for years. People are afraid. I like the til end of turn idea. But zallow needs a piece to accompany him and we are set. +1 I do think that Bastila was right for her time, but I agree in many ways she has hampered design since. Especially the last several years, when honest attempts have been made to give OR alternatives (Arkanian Jedi General, Covenant) We have certainly tried to add more tech (Dowutin, M-6 Droid, Antarian Tech soldier), more sub faction options (Q'Anilia, Jace Malcom), and even some power pieces (Ven) - but it is hard for anything in the OR to compete with Bastila squads. If you make them more powerful then they are too strong. Bumping her down just a smidge gives room for other OR squadtypes to be played. I agree with this so much. Bastila was good to get OR competitive. But her time is up... We need her to be toned down. But not before another option is available for us. Am I dreaming or are we all agreeing now? Shhh enjoy the moment, it's so beautiful, at last all opinions are aligned as one. Hahaha. Time for community polling perhaps? Haha Unfortunately, Community polls don't do much. They don't reflect enough people's opinion. We probably have over 50 people that play the game regularly, and we never even get half that in poll votes. Polls are often also worded in a very biased way that skew results. On top of that, many on the design team and balance committee don't vote in them out of principal. They certainly read threads and take into consideration all viewpoints, but unless something is a virtual consensus action won't be taken. The balance Committee itself must have a vote of 5 to 2 or greater to take action. On some issues there are few outspoken people against something that post on bloomilk, but the design team and balance committee also have many in person conversations with people who don't post on bloomilk or don't vote in polls. They factor that in as well in making decisions. To be clear - I think blast bugs and Daala are near consensus community wide. Bastila is a little more mixed but leans reasonably toward change. Beyond that I don't see anything that has anywhere close to a significant majority that would weigh heavily in a BC vote to change.
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TimmerB123 wrote:I think most agree about blast bugs and Daala. To a lesser extent Bastila, since she hasn't significantly impacted the competitive scene since 2013.
I think Arkanian Jedi General squads are a legit option, Bryan hole barely missed the top 8 at GenCon a few years back with one (and that was when we had significantly more players in the tournament than the last couple of years.)
But people rarely consider other OR options because of her. I do believe that was Bryan's Antarian Ranger squad which did have to utilize Bastilla. I am not sure how I feel about just errating characters in order to update them to the current Meta. That really only band aids the issues you have with a game that doesn't have a cycling system in place.
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shmi15 wrote:This is false. Swarms can beat scissors, we have all seen it many times. Extreme Rock CAN NOT beat Blast Bugs. Because the luck of the dice is taken away from it. And I can go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on about how Extreme Rock is kept in check without Vong Blast Bugs. If you'd like to challenge me, throw an idea you think only Blast Bugs can deal with. And I will tell you how to beat it.
The fact that you guys keep trying to argue in favor of Blast Bugs in anyway is baffling. Put a save of 11 on it. Thats not extreme. Thats simple, and exactly how the ability should've been created to begin with. The idea that the Vong have been designed with any real thought process is hilarious.
Here is the thought process.
"How can we screw over Force Users? Make swarms of non uniques who have Force Immunity and make them do auto damage from 8 squares with Mobile attack. BRILLIANT! Now, no matter what, we can't bend on this design. Lets fight it with every breathe, and tell everyone they don't understand the game as well as us." ( This is how I feel Vong discussions go during design)
I would love for the designer of these pieces to defend them instead of everyone else. But I don't even know who what was. They have probably left the game, and their present to us was Blast Bugs. Umm... So much of that I didn't say, but okay...
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Darth_Frenchy wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:I think most agree about blast bugs and Daala. To a lesser extent Bastila, since she hasn't significantly impacted the competitive scene since 2013.
I think Arkanian Jedi General squads are a legit option, Bryan hole barely missed the top 8 at GenCon a few years back with one (and that was when we had significantly more players in the tournament than the last couple of years.)
But people rarely consider other OR options because of her. I do believe that was Bryan's Antarian Ranger squad which did have to utilize Bastilla. Shoot you're right, I forgot it was a weird squad that ignored the Arkanian Jedi General's prideful by including Bastila. I stand by that Arkanian Jedi General squads are a legit option, and the addition of the Dowutin Soldier, the Antarian Ranger Technical Soldier, Jace Malcom, and the M-6 droid helps them (at least that was certainly the intent). The issue is that (ironically) Bastila hurts them directly, and in faction they pale compared to Bastila squads. Darth_Frenchy wrote:
I am not sure how I feel about just errating characters in order to update them to the current Meta. That really only band aids the issues you have with a game that doesn't have a cycling system in place.
I don't think it's a band-aid in these cases. Nor do I think it's only due to the current meta. They have long been issues. With blast bugs or Daala, it's more akin to surgery on a long festering wound, or amputation of an irreparable gangrenous appendage. With Bastila it's more like rehabilitation for a long term injury.
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Ya'know what would be really great? If we could bring Bastilla into a Vong squad! (or vice versa, I'm not fussy) 
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juice man wrote:Ya'know what would be really great? If we could bring Bastilla into a Vong squad! (or vice versa, I'm not fussy) But none of them would get the +10 damage due to force immunity
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