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TimmerB123 wrote:FlyingArrow wrote:I am not in favor of any additional changes to Daala. We've already had errata and printed new cards for her. That makes 1 And more than likely the only one  Daala should never had been made to start. That piece is night and day different than Bastilla. I have fun playin Bastila. I have no fun playing Daala. And even with the changes, she is still an NPE.
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shmi15 wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:FlyingArrow wrote:I am not in favor of any additional changes to Daala. We've already had errata and printed new cards for her. That makes 1 And more than likely the only one Daala should never had been made to start. That piece is night and day different than Bastilla. I have fun playin Bastila. I have no fun playing Daala. And even with the changes, she is still an NPE. Actually I bet there are more than 1 (my comment wasn't meant to be snarky, it was to highlight that it isn't a complete consensus.) Although I do think they are in the vast minority.
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TimmerB123 wrote:Clearly there is a variety of opinions on Bastila.
Even though I have my personal opinions, in general I don't think something should be changed unless -
A. There is an overwhelming majority (near consensus) that want the change
B. It negatively impacts the competitive game (i.e. "Broken")
As of now the only 2 that fit that bill are Daala and Blast Bugs, with an outside shot for see-threepio
I think 70% of the player base thinks Unkar should be added to that list as well... but still waiting on the BC to adjust that. But if we are cool with stapling DL and/or prideful on everyone until the end of time then leave her haha
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Daala and Blast Bugs are definitely needed changes that the vast majority can agree with.
3720 to 1... All i play is melee so ummm. I dont really care myself haha. but it falls under the
"Should not have happened because it should not exist" category
along with Jango's defense and a few other things.
After Blast Bugs and Daala I think we should see what the game looks like and maybe soft counters from designs can help a few other things (Booming Voice, out activate)
and designers can just overwhelmingly design less melee hate and better melee and we should see in 2 or 3 sets melee taking a competitive stance.
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jen'ari wrote:and designers can just overwhelmingly design less melee hate and better melee and we should see in 2 or 3 sets melee taking a competitive stance. I hope set 14 took a good step in that direction.
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jen'ari wrote:3720 to 1... All i play is melee so ummm. I dont really care myself haha. but it falls under the
"Should not have happened because it should not exist" category
. Certainly agree that 3720 to 1 shouldn't exist, but See-Threepio is a much bigger issue than just that. He's non-melee hate on the surface, but often overlooked is that Diplomat + Distraction is MASSIVE melee hate. I still remember the game where See-Threepio almost single-handedly won me the game versus Vader of Lothal and 100pt Sidious. I just stuck him in a doorway and Vader couldn't attack or get through. Then when he had to go around the long way, I based Sidious and started winning inits again. Vader was dead before he did anything and Sidious goes down by basing him with See-Threepio and then shooting adjacent with my guns, winning init, and finishing him off. It was so easy it was laughable. It was essentially like playing with double override vs a player with zero Door control. Only it was just roadblock Threepio distracting massively important CEs
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TimmerB123 wrote:jen'ari wrote:3720 to 1... All i play is melee so ummm. I dont really care myself haha. but it falls under the
"Should not have happened because it should not exist" category
. Certainly agree that 3720 to 1 shouldn't exist, but See-Threepio is a much bigger issue than just that. He's non-melee hate on the surface, but often overlooked is that Diplomat + Distraction is MASSIVE melee hate. I still remember the game where See-Threepio almost single-handedly won me the game versus Vader of Lothal and 100pt Sidious. I just stuck him in a doorway and Vader couldn't attack or get through. Then when he had to go around the long way, I based Sidious and started winning inits again. Vader was dead before he did anything and Sidious goes down by basing him with See-Threepio and then shooting adjacent with my guns, winning init, and finishing him off. It was so easy it was laughable. It was essentially like playing with double override vs a player with zero Door control. Only it was just roadblock Threepio distracting massively important CEs I have actually had a similar problem with a door and diplomat. ya, that sucks. screw him
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jen'ari wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:jen'ari wrote:3720 to 1... All i play is melee so ummm. I dont really care myself haha. but it falls under the
"Should not have happened because it should not exist" category
. Certainly agree that 3720 to 1 shouldn't exist, but See-Threepio is a much bigger issue than just that. He's non-melee hate on the surface, but often overlooked is that Diplomat + Distraction is MASSIVE melee hate. I still remember the game where See-Threepio almost single-handedly won me the game versus Vader of Lothal and 100pt Sidious. I just stuck him in a doorway and Vader couldn't attack or get through. Then when he had to go around the long way, I based Sidious and started winning inits again. Vader was dead before he did anything and Sidious goes down by basing him with See-Threepio and then shooting adjacent with my guns, winning init, and finishing him off. It was so easy it was laughable. It was essentially like playing with double override vs a player with zero Door control. Only it was just roadblock Threepio distracting massively important CEs I have actually had a similar problem with a door and diplomat. ya, that sucks. screw him Far worse with distraction. Shut off CEs of any melee piece with impunity.
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TimmerB123 wrote:jen'ari wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:jen'ari wrote:3720 to 1... All i play is melee so ummm. I dont really care myself haha. but it falls under the
"Should not have happened because it should not exist" category
. Certainly agree that 3720 to 1 shouldn't exist, but See-Threepio is a much bigger issue than just that. He's non-melee hate on the surface, but often overlooked is that Diplomat + Distraction is MASSIVE melee hate. I still remember the game where See-Threepio almost single-handedly won me the game versus Vader of Lothal and 100pt Sidious. I just stuck him in a doorway and Vader couldn't attack or get through. Then when he had to go around the long way, I based Sidious and started winning inits again. Vader was dead before he did anything and Sidious goes down by basing him with See-Threepio and then shooting adjacent with my guns, winning init, and finishing him off. It was so easy it was laughable. It was essentially like playing with double override vs a player with zero Door control. Only it was just roadblock Threepio distracting massively important CEs I have actually had a similar problem with a door and diplomat. ya, that sucks. screw him Far worse with distraction. Shut off CEs of any melee piece with impunity. not any melee piece lord vader laughs at him
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Not exactly laughs. Lord Vader spends 2 Force points and his whole turn to kill him.
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FlyingArrow wrote:Not exactly laughs. Lord Vader spends 2 Force points and his whole turn to kill him. not sure what you are talking about.. but I was talking about force leap and full board swap
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See-Threepio has Diplomat. Lord Vader can kill Diplomats, but it takes two Force points. Diplomats (assuming the enemy can see one of the Diplomat's allies) cannot be targeted or attacked. With Overwhelming Force, Lord Vader is allowed to attack a Diplomat. But he still can't target them. With Lightsaber Sweep, Lord Vader generates non-targeted attacks. With both, he can kill a Diplomat. He has Master of the Force 2, so is able to use both at the same time.
But jumping past a roadblock to a more important target is probably a better move.
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Not that talking about needing a 71pt piece to overcome a 12pt piece is a good argument anyway, but . . .
There's counters to most things (and that's good. Abilities should have counters)
But when a piece is so strong that you HAVE to play a counter, then it significantly narrows the meta. That is not good.
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Lord_Ball wrote:ABM was terrible design 7.5 years ago too, infact a lot of vset pieces that are specifically designed so that they show up in the competitive setting are just terrible, simply because the focus is more on competing than on FUN and as a game FUN should take precedence, but it doesn't. Not that my opinion even matters because I do not play competitively simply because it's just not FUN.
Since playing with/against her isn't an issue for me now she's just annoying due to having to add Disciplined Leader to any Custom commander figure where the CE is a big part of their design. I would argue that Bastila makes the game more fun overall, as she dissuades CE heavy squads from being played (although she doesn't anymore as too many CE heavy squads can deal with her easily). Puts the focus more on unique, self-sufficient squads. Right now, as Jen'ari already alluded to, the Imperials and Rebels can run amok, just like they did in the WOTC days.
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A lesson I've learned over many many years in this game is that when a player plays one type of squad all the time, and that squad gets a counter, they pretty much act like their life is over.
Part of the fun for me he's trying to find a way to overcome that counter by playing other things.
Some people just don't want to do that.
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TheHutts wrote:Lord_Ball wrote:ABM was terrible design 7.5 years ago too, infact a lot of vset pieces that are specifically designed so that they show up in the competitive setting are just terrible, simply because the focus is more on competing than on FUN and as a game FUN should take precedence, but it doesn't. Not that my opinion even matters because I do not play competitively simply because it's just not FUN.
Since playing with/against her isn't an issue for me now she's just annoying due to having to add Disciplined Leader to any Custom commander figure where the CE is a big part of their design. I would argue that Bastila makes the game more fun overall, as she dissuades CE heavy squads from being played (although she doesn't anymore as too many CE heavy squads can deal with her easily). Puts the focus more on unique, self-sufficient squads. While I will agree that some CE Heavy squads are ridiculous and no fun to play against either, the main problem I have with ABM is it feels like a cheat ability - cheating as in you are taking away what I would call a fundamental aspect of the game from your opponent, but keeping it for yourself. Who wants to play against a "cheater" - i.e. No FUN at least to me.
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TimmerB123 wrote: A lesson I've learned over many many years in this game is that when a player plays one type of squad all the time, and that squad gets a counter, they pretty much act like their life is over.
Part of the fun for me he's trying to find a way to overcome that counter by playing other things.
Some people just don't want to do that.
I have trouble understanding that. I'm a total squad whore and I have no loyalty whatsoever. Daala is broken - play Daala. Double swap exists - play double swap.
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The only cool thing about this is that it is cheating and you lose 33 points to do so. But the cheat is in a faction with very little other cheats.
So what is more of a cheat.
boardwide evade, mobile, and disruptive
or boardwide evade, mobile, out activate, and disruptive
Or Swap with Opportunist and Master tactician?
imo it is on the same par as those, but the difference is that in OR you are taking something away and in the others you are granting something. easier to control how affecting granting something is than taking something away from someone else.
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jen'ari wrote:
So what is more of a cheat.
ABM, simply because the other listed may not be very fun to play against (cheezy), but they are about tactics not nerfing the game fundamentals for your opponent. Bastila VS CEs is kind of like Palpatine, Sith Lord Vs Clones (In many ways Execute Order 66 is a cheat ability, but since Palps pretty much sucks it's a non-issue cheat).
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TheHutts wrote:TimmerB123 wrote: A lesson I've learned over many many years in this game is that when a player plays one type of squad all the time, and that squad gets a counter, they pretty much act like their life is over.
Part of the fun for me he's trying to find a way to overcome that counter by playing other things.
Some people just don't want to do that.
I have trouble understanding that. I'm a total squad whore and I have no loyalty whatsoever. Daala is broken - play Daala. Double swap exists - play double swap. +1 But some other people will only play 1 squad type and cry when it gets a counter. *shrug* That's just minis. Again though, if it greatly restricts the meta, then it's a bad thing.
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