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FlyingArrow
Posted: Monday, August 16, 2010 1:41:27 AM
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billiv15 wrote:
DarthJak wrote:
In a non competitive game, any time some one uses the same squad, or core figs, all the time is no fun for anyone.ThumbDown We roll for faction, so the same squad can't be brought to the table every time.In competitive play, just play the rebel squad the won GenCon the last 2 years.Sneaky


You'd think someone who was at Gencon would know better than to make stupid (and yes, I mean stupid) comments like this. You must be so much better than everyone to have come to this conclusion when virtually no one else at the event did so. Oh wait, maybe that's not better, maybe that's just a stupid comment.


Did you miss his sarcasm or are you just adding your own sarcasm?
billiv15
Posted: Monday, August 16, 2010 2:36:12 AM
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NVM, not even worth arguing. The comment was pure genious to make, sarcasm or otherwise. I leave it at that.
Weeks
Posted: Monday, August 16, 2010 5:08:18 AM
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DarthJak wrote:
In a non competitive game, any time some one uses the same squad, or core figs, all the time is no fun for anyone.ThumbDown We roll for faction, so the same squad can't be brought to the table every time.In competitive play, just play the rebel squad the won GenCon the last 2 years.Sneaky


I think Deri and Daniel could have won no matter what they played. I really hope your being sarcastic with that.
Haven13
Posted: Monday, August 16, 2010 6:22:52 AM
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Echo24 wrote:
Bringing words like "honor" into the discussion is kind of silly, and sort of demeaning. Competition is healthy if you enjoy it and have the right attitude about it. The key to remember is that it's just a game; if your "honor" is based on a game, then there are problems way beyond the scope of this thread. Everyone should play the game however they enjoy it best: for some people, the most enjoyable way to play is at the highly competitive level where they can test their skills and learn how to be better; for others, it's at the kitchen table playing a friendly game where they can make crazy squads and use fun abilities that the competitive players would never use. Neither of these players are wrong.


The quote from The Last Samurai comes up because of a conversation that I had with someone about why "Katsumoto no longer dishonors himself by using firearms" when he knows it puts him at a distinct tactical disadvantage.

I realized that the reasons that I put forth in the conversation were similar to my feelings about why I will and won't do certain things while playing games.

But that's just it. It was a reflection on me and my feelings. You shouldn't take it as a barb at yours. Much of the language on the other side of the argument could be taken as insulting if I chose to view it that way and I choose to believe that the people on that side of the argument are not calling me unskilled, or crazy, or silly.

But, I will take issue with your view of honor. Your behavior while playing a game is as much a reflection of who you really are as your behavior in a combat situation. Who and what we are is in every breath we take.

If you play the way you do and feel fine with it, that's between you and yourself. And that's where it counts.
billiv15
Posted: Monday, August 16, 2010 6:54:23 AM
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Haven13 wrote:

But, I will take issue with your view of honor. Your behavior while playing a game is as much a reflection of who you really are as your behavior in a combat situation. Who and what we are is in every breath we take.


No it's not. Your POV requires a universal picture of who someone is, visible in the most minute instance, which isn't reality in any way shape or form.

I don't care how you act playing a silly little game, it is not a reflection of who you are as a person, any more than saying, some guy who gets angry about being cut off in traffic and throws up a finger, is a terrible person.

There are much more important things in life, and how you act in those things are a much more predictable indicator of who someone really is than how you chose to play a game. Just because someone plays the game in a competitive way does not mean anything about their honor, and quite frankly, anyone who would try to extrapolate someone's game play choices to mean anything about their person, says quite a bit about the limited viewpoint of the person making the judgement. Issues of honor play out in how you live in the world, what you do, how you treat people, what you fight for and against. It has absolutely nothing to do with how you chose to play a game.
juice man
Posted: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:41:23 AM
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billiv15 wrote:
DarthJak wrote:
In a non competitive game, any time some one uses the same squad, or core figs, all the time is no fun for anyone.ThumbDown We roll for faction, so the same squad can't be brought to the table every time.In competitive play, just play the rebel squad the won GenCon the last 2 years.Sneaky


You'd think someone who was at Gencon would know better than to make stupid (and yes, I mean stupid) comments like this. You must be so much better than everyone to have come to this conclusion when virtually no one else at the event did so. Oh wait, maybe that's not better, maybe that's just a stupid comment.

This year a Rebel squad won, last year a Rebel squad won against a Rebel squad, I think a Rebel squad won the year before that.
Maybe, just maybe, DJ's comment was about how powerful the rebs are, and not that just anybody can use the rebs and trounce the great players.
billiv15
Posted: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:57:26 AM
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Juiceman, I would spend time arguing the point, if that's what this thread was about. But I can most certainly tell you that the winner's those three years were not because of the squad. It's completely shortsighted and limited to say it's because Rebels are too strong, in particular for this year. The winner won because of how he played, not because he had a superior faction.

5 factions were competitive this year, and any of the 5 had a good shot at winning. Last year, I agree, Rebels were superior in 150 points, with the current rules of the time, and on that maplist - although it's worth remembering that a Republic squad was darn close to winning it all. In 2008, there were 4 competitive factions, and I think 3 made the top 8. And all of them had a legitimate shot at winning as well.

So no, I don't agree. And anyone who was there, and actually watched the tournament would never say such a thing about it. I can understand why someone looking from the outside might limit their viewpoint and make that argument, but Jak was there, he has no excuse to make such claims, sarcasm or not.
kezzamachine
Posted: Monday, August 16, 2010 8:08:14 AM
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Xeo... you need to be a bit careful about what you are saying... I've seen some things in my time. *wink*
IronLung
Posted: Monday, August 16, 2010 8:13:07 AM
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Every game has these same issues what is honorable and what is not. Like in football taking out the QB on a fumble or a interception, Spiking someone sliding into a base in baseball, or in SWM the GOWK issues. If you are playing for fun and keep slaughtering everyone you either have to find better players, dumb down your squads, or teach them your tactics to be not "cheap" in my opinion. I like a good butt kicking I learn way more from a loss than a win.BlooMilk
DarthJak
Posted: Monday, August 16, 2010 8:13:18 AM
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WOW! Confused I didn't think that would cause such a fuss. All I meant was that good players + rebel squads seem to do well in competitive play.
I haven't watched or participated in the GenCon championship, I know I'm not that good.
I prefer other kinds of SWM, like sealed, tile wars and league.
Any one who knows me, knows that despite my screen name I'm not an evil sith lord trying to take over the universe.
Blushing My apologies to all who were offended by the post
Weeks
Posted: Monday, August 16, 2010 8:18:32 AM
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a good ole (sarcasm) note will stop further assumptions from causing arguements.
billiv15
Posted: Monday, August 16, 2010 8:21:33 AM
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How about speaking about the troll? A screenname like that pretty much should have been banned the moment it was created. Have you done anything about that, or are we to understand that we can insult others by making offensive screennames?
NickName
Posted: Monday, August 16, 2010 8:33:57 AM
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Darthbane53 wrote:
So I ask you, the Star Wars Miniatures Public, What do you think is cheap?


Pissing and moaning about what your opponent chooses to play in any particular game. That's cheap or cheese or whatever the current in vogue word is.

In a casual environment, over the long haul, it's probably advisable not to constantly bring the same top tier squad(s) for obvious reasons, but in any one game, build a legal squad, play it to the best of your ability, and be gracious in victory or defeat.

Beyond that, whiners will whine and whether you should address it is really up to your own judgment about the person involved. Sometimes it's worth it, and some people just aren't worth the headache.


juice man
Posted: Monday, August 16, 2010 8:59:16 AM
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Bill, agreed, no argument. In 2009 I played (briefly) in 150 + 200 pt constructed. Got my butt kicked (50% reb squads). It was not just because they were rebs, but because the opposing players knew their squads, had a plan, and more than likely, practiced. Plus that was my first constructed tourney. Real eye opener.
Edit--but fun.
kezzamachine
Posted: Monday, August 16, 2010 9:11:15 AM
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Something that Dean Miller at swmgamers says all the time is 'remember, its only a game' and I like that. I play the best I can and try and pull out a great squad if I can, or even if I pull out a fun squad, I still play it hard... but you must always remember that if you're a jerk about it, your opponent is not gonna wanna play you again and that isn't nice.

I also find that if you are good at the game and you play way below your best or field too much of a joke squad, that can be a bit insulting too. I have found, in basketball mostly, that people around you expect to to bring a good game so they can try and beat it. If you are horsing around, sometimes all you do is disappoint.

Bottom line: win, lose, draw, a-squad, b-squad, tournament, casual - don't be an ass.
Haven13
Posted: Monday, August 16, 2010 9:11:34 AM
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billiv15 wrote:
Haven13 wrote:

But, I will take issue with your view of honor. Your behavior while playing a game is as much a reflection of who you really are as your behavior in a combat situation. Who and what we are is in every breath we take.


No it's not. Your POV requires a universal picture of who someone is, visible in the most minute instance, which isn't reality in any way shape or form.

I don't care how you act playing a silly little game, it is not a reflection of who you are as a person, any more than saying, some guy who gets angry about being cut off in traffic and throws up a finger, is a terrible person.

There are much more important things in life, and how you act in those things are a much more predictable indicator of who someone really is than how you chose to play a game. Just because someone plays the game in a competitive way does not mean anything about their honor, and quite frankly, anyone who would try to extrapolate someone's game play choices to mean anything about their person, says quite a bit about the limited viewpoint of the person making the judgement. Issues of honor play out in how you live in the world, what you do, how you treat people, what you fight for and against. It has absolutely nothing to do with how you chose to play a game.


It's never seemed to me that you consider Star Wars Miniatures a "silly little game" until now.

It certainly cuts to the bone when you bring up anger in driving situations. I'll admit that it is something with which I struggle. And I'll admit that when I stumble and fall that I dishonor myself.

I don't know this site well enough to have tested the religous waters, so I'll just say that I've heard someone say "Whatsoever you do to the most insignificant people in your daily travels is a much larger deal than you make think." or words to that effect.

Because of that, I DO consider it dishonorable when I let anger get the best of me on the road. I work hard at it, and when I'm better at it, my whole life is better for it.

Is there that big of a difference between "how you treat people" in a game setting, or on the road, or in forums on the internet, or in some other aspect of life?

You may continue to believe that these things are unrelated, and I can tell that I will not be able to dissuade you from that view. But I'm not going to tell you that you are wrong or tell you that it says or doesn't say anything about you.
Darth O
Posted: Monday, August 16, 2010 9:16:40 AM
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When I play, which is just with my friends and maybe a sister or two, we roll for faction, then for points, then for map. This creates a totally random game. I generally make a crazy fun squad, such as 4 Rebel Snowspeeders or a bunch of the same figure, maybe 5 Utapaun Warriors, 10 Elite Hoth Troopers, etc. I have used most of the figures in my collection, even though some aren't competitive at all. Case in point, I used Leia, Captive in an Ithmander squad with heaps of Utapauns. Among my friends, Rebels suck. We don't have Rieekan, Crix, Han Smuggler, AE Leia, or much of the other 'chase' Rebels. I enjoy these games a lot :)
FlyingArrow
Posted: Monday, August 16, 2010 9:57:22 AM
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Darth O wrote:
Among my friends, Rebels suck. We don't have Rieekan, Crix, Han Smuggler, AE Leia, or much of the other 'chase' Rebels. I enjoy these games a lot :)


Of the ones you mentioned, only Rieekan is a chase piece. The others are only rares and can easily be found for under $5 on ebay.
Sithborg
Posted: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:33:49 AM
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Okay, things seem to be calming back down a bit, so I will let this thread live (still looking at some thread cleaning). Let's keep it that way.
billiv15
Posted: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:44:28 AM
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Haven13 wrote:

It's never seemed to me that you consider Star Wars Miniatures a "silly little game" until now.
Even though I've said statements like this multiple times over the years.... Just because I like the game and the community doesn't mean I don't have an accurate perspective on it.

Haven13 wrote:
I don't know this site well enough to have tested the religous waters, so I'll just say that I've heard someone say "Whatsoever you do to the most insignificant people in your daily travels is a much larger deal than you make think." or words to that effect.
Yeah, that's has nothing to do with this actually. That's about how you treat the poor and underprivaledged. Interesting that you chose that passage to misrepresent, but ignore the repeated passages that warn about judging others. I hardly see how taking care of the least has anything to do with SWMs, other than perhaps helping people learn the game, giving things away especially to children, etc. Oh wait, I do all of those things, so I guess that can't be it. Either way, none of that has anything to do with the topic of this thread which is "what is cheap". Doing for the least isn't at all related to competitive play, no matter how bad you want to slaughter the Bible.

Haven13 wrote:
You may continue to believe that these things are unrelated, and I can tell that I will not be able to dissuade you from that view. But I'm not going to tell you that you are wrong or tell you that it says or doesn't say anything about you.
No judgement or tone there at all (sarcasm). I believe a relevant passage would be something about stones and throwing, or maybe about the plank in an eye.

Playing competitively does not equate to mistreating people, and it does not relate to "honor" in any moral system that I know of, other than that of the "scrub" player (read Sirlin's article for explanation of the term).
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