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Renegades and Rogues (contains spoilers for V-set 2. Full set list now up) Options
confute
Posted: Friday, May 13, 2011 9:44:25 AM
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Agree with you wannabe. There wont be a Mace black and Blue type squad (or not as clean as the classic Imp squad)
That would even him out.
Weeks
Posted: Friday, May 13, 2011 12:28:53 PM
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As one of the lead playtesters I've played 5 games with mace. Echo the other lead played about 5 as well. I remember in one game vs tint it was my master kavar vs his mace in gambit as the first action of the game. Mace rolled something like 5 crits and won the game right there (good job vassal). We then retried the rolls and mace just rolled normally. Once that happened mace got rolled and I won.

Bottom line is mace does 60 - 100 damage on the move by himself (100 if a crit), he does this for 20 more points then Mara who does 80 - 120 on the move. Come on guys, give us playtesters a little credit.

Mace is a fun piece but his cost is very restrictive.
Mandelmauler
Posted: Friday, May 13, 2011 1:02:32 PM
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brennan wrote:
OK so I playtested Mace against myself and a friend and these were my results:

So now I had Revan and a uggie left. I attacked with Revan, dealt a measly 20 dm and swapped with my uggie....


"At the end of this character's turn, he may exchange positions with another ally of the same base size within 6 squares."

House rules? Or is Revan a Hobbit?
swinefeld
Posted: Friday, May 13, 2011 11:09:35 PM
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Location: Southern Illinois
Bothan transmission solved on Gamers!
(Have you checked out the new forum layout over there? It's nice!)

Kudos to Voren Chalco for nailing the majority of the stats. ThumpUp

Devaronian Assassin 43/60 (fringe, cost 18, RM: Devaronian Bounty Hunter)
Hit Points 50
Defense 16
Attack +8
Damage 10

Special Abilities
- Bounty Hunter +2 (+2 Attack against Unique enemies)
- Assassin (+4 Attack and +10 Damage against living enemies)
- Jolt (An enemy hit by this character's attack is considered activated this round; save 11. Huge and larger characters ignore this effect.)
- Stealth (If this character has cover, he does not count as the nearest enemy for an attacker farther than 6 squares when choosing targets)
- Sniper (Other characters do not provide cover against this character's attack)

"I know the difference between a demon and a Devaronian and I'd rather trust a demon."
- Naradan D'ulin

BigGrin
NickName
Posted: Saturday, May 14, 2011 3:28:44 AM
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Weeks wrote:
Bottom line is mace does 60 - 100 damage on the move by himself (100 if a crit), he does this for 20 more points then Mara who does 80 - 120 on the move. Come on guys, give us playtesters a little credit.


I think you forgot the triple damage on the crit or maybe the Flurry there because Mace it going to do 60-120. 120 more often than not unless he uses his FP to extend his move rather than making sure he avoids missing.

I always use the 10% rule on pricing. Give or take 10% on the cost (65 +/- 6.5) and if that's okay then the fig is priced fine. I think Mace is priced on the agressive side, if only because I'd prefer he scaled a bit better with the other high-end Republic pieces so I'd put him around 70 which falls within the 10% rule making him close enough for rock and roll.
Weeks
Posted: Saturday, May 14, 2011 4:30:27 AM
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Ya I forgot the flurry. 120 still not bad.
jedispyder
Posted: Saturday, May 14, 2011 4:38:26 AM
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I was thinking you didn't forget it but instead figured in hitting only 3 of the 4 attacks. It's almost like an unspoken (yet not untyped) rule that you fail 1 of your main attacks when all are needed. "Ok, I need to roll a 5 all four times, should be easy. 11,16,14,4, FPRR 1> CRAP!"
FlyingArrow
Posted: Saturday, May 14, 2011 4:58:49 AM
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jedispyder wrote:
I was thinking you didn't forget it but instead figured in hitting only 3 of the 4 attacks. It's almost like an unspoken (yet not untyped) rule that you fail 1 of your main attacks when all are needed. "Ok, I need to roll a 5 all four times, should be easy. 11,16,14,4, FPRR 1> CRAP!"


Not a rule, but probabilistically likely that you'll miss at least once. The chances of hitting all 4 attacks where you only need a 5 to hit is only 41%.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Saturday, May 14, 2011 6:21:54 AM
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I just ran a simulation for Mace, assuming he needs a 7 to hit his enemy and the enemy has infinite hit points. This is with no re-rolls. Here are the results:

(5000 replications)
Mean damage: 81.92
50th percentile for damage: 60dmg (50% of all results are 60dmg or less) (median)
75th percentile for damage: 100dmg (75% of all results are 100dmg or less)
90th percentile for damage: 160dmg (90% of all results are 160dmg or less)
95th percentile for damage: 200dmg (95% of all results are 200dmg or less)
Max damage: 540 (1 out of 5000 replications was over 500 damage)
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Saturday, May 14, 2011 8:08:01 AM
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Weeks wrote:
As one of the lead playtesters I've played 5 games with mace. Echo the other lead played about 5 as well. I remember in one game vs tint it was my master kavar vs his mace in gambit as the first action of the game. Mace rolled something like 5 crits and won the game right there (good job vassal). We then retried the rolls and mace just rolled normally. Once that happened mace got rolled and I won.

Bottom line is mace does 60 - 100 damage on the move by himself (100 if a crit), he does this for 20 more points then Mara who does 80 - 120 on the move. Come on guys, give us playtesters a little credit.

Mace is a fun piece but his cost is very restrictive.



The only problem with comparing mace to mara is that mara has to use a force power to do her 80-120 on the move and she can not move back into hiding, and she can not re-roll if she misses. Mara's attacks can be stopped by a character that uses force defense or force absorb as well, (not very many chars, have force defense but still it can be cancelled)
Mace on the other hand only has to roll a 17+ to do it, and then he can move back into to cover, there is nothing else involved with it.
AdmiralMotti89
Posted: Saturday, May 14, 2011 8:10:59 AM
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Nice to get a sneaky devaronian
Ruhk
Posted: Saturday, May 14, 2011 8:28:35 AM
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Semantics. If you consider each roll independently, then yes each roll has an 80% chance of hitting, but the key is the wording "all 4 attacks" which means that an outcome that is considered a success is one where all 4 attacks hit.

Probability (all 4 attacks hit) = (prob attack 4 hits, given attack 3 hits, given attack 2 hits, given attack 1 hits) = .8 * .8 * .8 * .8 = .4096

since each attacks' success is conditional on the success of the ones before it, the probabilities are multiplied together.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Saturday, May 14, 2011 9:06:43 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
I just ran a simulation for Mace, assuming he needs a 7 to hit his enemy and the enemy has infinite hit points. This is with no re-rolls. Here are the results:

(5000 replications)
Mean damage: 81.92
50th percentile for damage: 60dmg (50% of all results are 60dmg or less) (median)
75th percentile for damage: 100dmg (75% of all results are 100dmg or less)
90th percentile for damage: 160dmg (90% of all results are 160dmg or less)
95th percentile for damage: 200dmg (95% of all results are 200dmg or less)
Max damage: 540 (1 out of 5000 replications was over 500 damage)


I just adjusted the simulation to allow for two FPRRs. The re-rolls would only be used for a miss. Still assuming a 7 to hit. New results:

(5000 replications)
Mean damage: 116dmg
25th percentile for damage: 60dmg (25% of all results are 60dmg or less)
50th percentile for damage: 120dmg (50% of all results are 120dmg or less) (median)
75th percentile for damage: 160dmg (75% of all results are 160dmg or less)
90th percentile for damage: 220dmg (90% of all results are 220dmg or less)
95th percentile for damage: 240dmg (95% of all results are 240dmg or less)
99th percentile for damage: 360dmg (99% of all results are 360dmg or less)
Max damage: 540 (1 out of 5000 replications was over 500 damage)
FlyingArrow
Posted: Saturday, May 14, 2011 10:16:08 AM
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And here are the numbers for Mara Jade, Jedi. For an apples-to-apples comparison, I allowed no rerolls, since she has to use LSA to get the 4 attacks; I assumed she gets Cunning, which gives her +16 attack (same as Mace) so that's 4 attacks, 30dmg per hit, 40dmg on a roll of 19 or 20.

(5000 replications)
Mean damage: 87.18dmg
25th percentile for damage: 60dmg (25% of all results are 60dmg or less)
50th percentile for damage: 90dmg (50% of all results are 90dmg or less) (median)
75th percentile for damage: 110dmg (75% of all results are 110dmg or less)
90th percentile for damage: 130dmg (90% of all results are 130dmg or less)
95th percentile for damage: 130dmg (95% of all results are 130dmg or less)
Max damage: 150 (160 is theoretical max, but that never happened in 5000 replications.)

(Edit: Corrected to give a crit on 19 or 20.)
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Saturday, May 14, 2011 10:27:29 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
And here are the numbers for Mara Jade, Jedi. For an apples-to-apples comparison, I allowed no rerolls, since she has to use LSA to get the 4 attacks; I assumed she gets Cunning, which gives her +16 attack (same as Mace) so that's 4 attacks, 30dmg per hit, 40dmg on a roll of 20.

(5000 replications)
Mean damage: 85.122dmg
25th percentile for damage: 60dmg (25% of all results are 60dmg or less)
50th percentile for damage: 90dmg (50% of all results are 90dmg or less) (median)
75th percentile for damage: 100dmg (75% of all results are 100dmg or less)
90th percentile for damage: 120dmg (90% of all results are 120dmg or less)
95th percentile for damage: 130dmg (95% of all results are 130dmg or less)
Max damage: 150 (160 is theoretical max, but that never happened in 5000 replications.)



Mara also scores a critical on a roll of 19
FlyingArrow
Posted: Saturday, May 14, 2011 10:42:21 AM
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And now Lord Vader in the same situation, with Opportunist from Thrawn. Facing 23 defense, so with Opportunist he needs a 5 to hit instead of a 7. 4 attacks at 40dmg each (using LSA and Rage), no chance for a reroll. It might not be a fair comparison to give him Opportunist, since we didn't give Mace any boosts that he could gain, but here it is:

(5000 replications)
Mean damage: 131.324
10th percentile for damage: 80dmg (10% of all results are 80 or less)
25th percentile for damage: 120dmg (25% of all results are 120 or less)
50th percentile for damage: 120dmg (50% of all results are 120 or less) (median) (At least 25% of the time, he does exactly 120dmg.)
75th percentile for damage: 160dmg (75% of all results are 160dmg or less)
90th percentile for damage: 160dmg (90% of all results are 160dmg or less)
95th percentile for damage: 180dmg (95% of all results are 180dmg or less)
Max damage: 220 (240 is theoretical max, but that never happened in 5000 replications.)

Bottom line: we have three pieces that can deal out 120+ damage on the move. Versus 23 defense, Mara is the least likely to get the 120 damage off (as it should be considering that she's 20+ points cheaper than Mace or Lord Vader). Mace's damage output is far more variable than Lord Vader's (with Opportunist). They have the same median damage (120), but Lord Vader gets at least that much damage more than 75% of the time. Mace's damage isn't as reliable, but more than 10% of the time he will do 200+ damage, a number Lord Vader will never reach.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Saturday, May 14, 2011 10:44:12 AM
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Deaths_Baine wrote:

Mara also scores a critical on a roll of 19


Thanks - I'll go back and fix that.
kezzamachine
Posted: Saturday, May 14, 2011 10:57:06 AM
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73% of all statistics are made up on the spot. 47% of all people know that...
Yoto_Yoto
Posted: Saturday, May 14, 2011 10:58:14 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
I just adjusted the simulation to allow for two FPRRs. The re-rolls would only be used for a miss. Still assuming a 7 to hit.

Surprisingly enough Mace raises his average damage if he re-rolls non-crit hits as well (the damage he can gain off a crit is larger than the damage he can lose off a miss). Vaapad mastery and Flurry are kinda counter intuitive.


He's got a 30% chance of missing and losing 20 damage. .3 x -20= -6
He's got a 50% chance to hit without critting for no change.
He's got a 20% chance of a crit and gaining at least 40 more damage and more likely 60 more damage. .2 x 40 = +8 and .2 x 60 = +12.
dreadtech
Posted: Saturday, May 14, 2011 11:07:08 AM
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kezzamachine wrote:
73% of all statistics are made up on the spot. 47% of all people know that...



Yes and there are lies, DAM LIES and statistics. LOL

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