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AndyHatton wrote:Sithborg wrote:Vong have been tier 1.5 ever since the Jedi Hunter. They can tear through most Jedi based squads. The problem is, WOTC era made shooters way too powerful, between Rebel support and map choices. Mandos had the chance to be top tier post KOTOR. Sadly, Clone Wars dropped shortly after, completely neutering the Mando Scout squads, with Yobuck targeted strikes at commanders, GOWK negating range, and IG86 squads with Sep tempo control.
Trust me, Mandos are getting some good stuff too. In addition to this I think I think some of the problem comes from the Vong being the Vong. Not in a gameplay sense, but in a Canon Sense. They remain very divisive among Star Wars Fans, I know of people who HATE the Vong and people who LOVE them. Personally I would just rather play the Jedi who fought the Vong than the Vong themselves. Ultimately I think there are just more people who don't like the Vong and a smaller proportion of players are playing them or even thinking to play them. Even when the OR wasn't so great I still had friends bringing them out, I have only ever played against the Vong maybe once. Completely agree. I haven't read the Vong books and I don't really hate the Vong, but they do seem like a silly plot idea in the first place. My view on the Vong is that they should always be tier 1.5 for gameplay reasons. They have the lowest visibility of all the factions in terms of the canon, and they are by nature a faction of hate squads against force users. Hate squads don't need to be tier 1. I guess they're getting boosted and that's okay, but I wouldn't care if they never make tier 1. *dives out of the way of razorbugs*
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FlyingArrow wrote:AndyHatton wrote:Sithborg wrote:Vong have been tier 1.5 ever since the Jedi Hunter. They can tear through most Jedi based squads. The problem is, WOTC era made shooters way too powerful, between Rebel support and map choices. Mandos had the chance to be top tier post KOTOR. Sadly, Clone Wars dropped shortly after, completely neutering the Mando Scout squads, with Yobuck targeted strikes at commanders, GOWK negating range, and IG86 squads with Sep tempo control.
Trust me, Mandos are getting some good stuff too. In addition to this I think I think some of the problem comes from the Vong being the Vong. Not in a gameplay sense, but in a Canon Sense. They remain very divisive among Star Wars Fans, I know of people who HATE the Vong and people who LOVE them. Personally I would just rather play the Jedi who fought the Vong than the Vong themselves. Ultimately I think there are just more people who don't like the Vong and a smaller proportion of players are playing them or even thinking to play them. Even when the OR wasn't so great I still had friends bringing them out, I have only ever played against the Vong maybe once. Completely agree. I haven't read the Vong books and I don't really hate the Vong, but they do seem like a silly plot idea in the first place. My view on the Vong is that they should always be tier 1.5 for gameplay reasons. They have the lowest visibility of all the factions in terms of the canon, and they are by nature a faction of hate squads against force users. Hate squads don't need to be tier 1. I guess they're getting boosted and that's okay, but I wouldn't care if they never make tier 1. *dives out of the way of razorbugs* I love the Vong gameplay wise and culture wise. Only a few books in and I can see the "contriversial" manner at which the antagonize the canon fans. Killing beloved characters. Trolling Jedi. Black hole and biotech. They should have just as much chance to be viable as any other squad.
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I am not sure how Vong aren't tier 1 with the Yammosk's stupidly overpowered power to STEAL commander effects. Using him, for a measly 15pts, makes your Shaper and CEs limitless with the added bonus of an enemy's commander effect. I primarily use Jedi/Sith based teams, and even when I don't Vong still walk up and down me. I don't use Seps, or Mandos, and those seem like the best way to offset Vong's primary target.
Obviously, I'm missing something, how is Vong not God-Tier?
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DarkLordVerjal wrote:I am not sure how Vong aren't tier 1 with the Yammosk's stupidly overpowered power to STEAL commander effects. Using him, for a measly 15pts, makes your Shaper and CEs limitless with the added bonus of an enemy's commander effect. I primarily use Jedi/Sith based teams, and even when I don't Vong still walk up and down me. I don't use Seps, or Mandos, and those seem like the best way to offset Vong's primary target.
Obviously, I'm missing something, how is Vong not God-Tier? As others have said above, lack of ranged attack, lack of movement breakers. these two things on a melee unfriendly map apparently is enough to keep the faction repressed.
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I think the simplest answer is that Droids are still quite powerful. And many other shooter squads have evolved, a lot having few Jedi. Without Jedi Hunter, alot of the best Vong have strong issues getting their damage through. Very rarely can they steal a Sep CE and actually make use of it. Sadly, the amount it takes to take out a JH at range isn't that terribley hard to achieve.
And their basic infrastructure had problems. Yes, the Yammosk is a big boost, Booming Voice alone. But what good does that do when they still don't have the pieces good enough to benefit from that support. Jedi Hunters are good, no doubt. But you can't base your whole squad on them. They get torn up. And design hasn't truly broken away from the design of the Jedi Hunter. I think they are now at the point where they can compete, despite some of their obvious drawbacks. The Shai Subaltern opens up options beyond the Jedi Hunter. Nei Rin gives them the range defense they need. Vong are here. And they will compete now.
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Vong really aren't that good before Vset 5. There has only ever been 1 Vong regional champion squad (run by me last year) and that was at a smaller regional where I got just the right match-ups.
That squad was Nom plus Yomin Carr, Cad Bane, Yammosk and bunches of workers. Jake K ran the same squad and placed top 4 at several regionals with it in 2011.
So that is the ONLY Vong squad with any real top tier success, and even that was minimal.
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DarkLordVerjal wrote:I am not sure how Vong aren't tier 1 with the Yammosk's stupidly overpowered power to STEAL commander effects. Using him, for a measly 15pts, makes your Shaper and CEs limitless with the added bonus of an enemy's commander effect. I primarily use Jedi/Sith based teams, and even when I don't Vong still walk up and down me. I don't use Seps, or Mandos, and those seem like the best way to offset Vong's primary target.
Obviously, I'm missing something, how is Vong not God-Tier? Are the squads that you are posting on Bloomilk the squads you're playing against Vong? Looking at your two most recent squads posted on Bloomilk, they are more thematic type builds that a competitive-level Vong squad should beat a lot of the time: --Palpatines Daycare-- 47 Jango Fett, Assassin 37 Aurra Sing 37 Supreme Chancellor Palpatine 18 Boba Fett, Young Bounty Hunter 9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid 8 Mas Amedda 40 Youngling x8 3 Ugnaught Demolitionist (199pts. 15 activations) --Vong War Jedi-- 45 Mara Jade, Jedi 33 Jacen Solo, Jedi Knight 29 Ganner Rhysode 28 Vua Rapuung 27 Lobot 23 Anakin Solo 9 General Dodonna 6 Ugnaught Demolitionist x2 (200pts. 9 activations)
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adamb0nd wrote:DarkLordVerjal wrote:I am not sure how Vong aren't tier 1 with the Yammosk's stupidly overpowered power to STEAL commander effects. Using him, for a measly 15pts, makes your Shaper and CEs limitless with the added bonus of an enemy's commander effect. I primarily use Jedi/Sith based teams, and even when I don't Vong still walk up and down me. I don't use Seps, or Mandos, and those seem like the best way to offset Vong's primary target.
Obviously, I'm missing something, how is Vong not God-Tier? As others have said above, lack of ranged attack, lack of movement breakers. these two things on a melee unfriendly map apparently is enough to keep the faction repressed. There are so many good commanders on tier 1 squads, most of them have tempo, and there is a lot of swap teams. There is no shortage of amazing CEs for Vong to take and make their own. I don't see how their range is the issue, since they can eat so much damage and do upwards of 30 damage a swing. TheHutts wrote:
Are the squads that you are posting on Bloomilk the squads you're playing against Vong? Looking at your two most recent squads posted on Bloomilk, they are more thematic type builds that a competitive-level Vong squad should beat a lot of the time:
--Palpatines Daycare--
47 Jango Fett, Assassin
37 Aurra Sing
37 Supreme Chancellor Palpatine
18 Boba Fett, Young Bounty Hunter
9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid
8 Mas Amedda
40 Youngling x8
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist
(199pts. 15 activations)
--Vong War Jedi--
45 Mara Jade, Jedi
33 Jacen Solo, Jedi Knight
29 Ganner Rhysode
28 Vua Rapuung
27 Lobot
23 Anakin Solo
9 General Dodonna
6 Ugnaught Demolitionist x2
(200pts. 9 activations)
Palps daycare is a joke team, the Vong War Jedi is an attempt at something new for me but not competitive. If I built competitive, I'd do what I've been doing since 2004, Rebels. All day every day. The same faction that got me 2nd at NJ regionals a few years ago. But using competitive Rebels, Yammosk steals my evade+mobile, and suddenly besides their armor saves, they have have a chance to completely avoid the damage. I'm not complaining, I'm just pointing out my dilemma.
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Except, of course, the Rebel squads that were competitive are no longer. I think the best Rebel squad last year was charging Red Squadron Pilots. And that did not use Riekan, it used the Klatoonian Captain, which only helps Vong if you are running Slayers, which I don't think anybody does over the Jedi Hunter.
Stealing Swap, possibly handy. But you must choose that over Opportunist or the +3/+3. And again, can't steal anything worthwhile that they can actually use against Sep Droids. Maybe San Hill, but if you aren't ready to run San Hill, he hurts more than helps. Stormcommandos are amazingly brutal with Wier against Vong. Still have to run up, take a massive pounding, and still have issue killing one with the Shields. OR Shooters, same issue. Trust me, Atton Rand (original) and Dash suped on Bastilla, chew away JHs.
In the end, look at the CE's that are used in top squads. Very few are actually going to be used, or give the Vong major advantages. The game has evolved. Bastilla has made CE dependence bad. And unless you are running on Vong or Imps, depending on CE's is very dangerous. Which leads to the Yammosk stealing CE's weakening.
Not to mention ganging up on Mace with a group of JHs is only asking for trouble.
And in the end, after V1, I think the designers were trying too much to apply other factions sensibilities or unable to come up with good ideas with the limited unique options available to them. Now, they have a massive movement breaker (along with a second good one). And their ranged defense has been strengthed. Imo, the Yammosk is now a debatable option in certain squads. Honestly, one of the reasons I wanted to preview Nei Rin at Lansing, was to see how Urbanshmi would react. I think NR Vong can be fun now with their 4 Vong pieces (oops? ;) ). Let alone what she brings to the Vong. Yes, they are still amazingly brutal with you Jedi/Sith squads. But's there is ways to fight them, even more so now. They just get the chance to win against Range now, rather than just loose.
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Sithborg wrote:And in the end, after V1, I think the designers were trying too much to apply other factions sensibilities or unable to come up with good ideas with the limited unique options available to them. Now, they have a massive movement breaker (along with a second good one). And their ranged defense has been strengthed. Imo, the Yammosk is now a debatable option in certain squads. Honestly, one of the reasons I wanted to preview Nei Rin at Lansing, was to see how Urbanshmi would react. I think NR Vong can be fun now with their 4 Vong pieces (oops? ;) ). Let alone what she brings to the Vong. Yes, they are still amazingly brutal with you Jedi/Sith squads. But's there is ways to fight them, even more so now. They just get the chance to win against Range now, rather than just loose. I completely agree with your post, except I'm curious about the Vong movement breakers you're referring to - are you talking about Nei Rin? Or Jakan, Most High Priest? Something else? Or something we haven't seen yet?
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Check the first post. ;)
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TheHutts wrote:Sithborg wrote:And in the end, after V1, I think the designers were trying too much to apply other factions sensibilities or unable to come up with good ideas with the limited unique options available to them. Now, they have a massive movement breaker (along with a second good one). And their ranged defense has been strengthed. Imo, the Yammosk is now a debatable option in certain squads. Honestly, one of the reasons I wanted to preview Nei Rin at Lansing, was to see how Urbanshmi would react. I think NR Vong can be fun now with their 4 Vong pieces (oops? ;) ). Let alone what she brings to the Vong. Yes, they are still amazingly brutal with you Jedi/Sith squads. But's there is ways to fight them, even more so now. They just get the chance to win against Range now, rather than just loose. I completely agree with your post, except I'm curious about the Vong movement breakers you're referring to - are you talking about Nei Rin? Or Jakan, Most High Priest? Something else? Or something we haven't seen yet? There is the Domain Shai Subaltern. Charging assault is a pretty good movement breaker. As for the 4 NR Vong (NRong?), currently there is Nei Rin, Vua Rappong, JH'ers, and, conditionally, Vergere. I'm assuming another awaits. I wonder if it is the Queen Nina Galfridian from the Invasion comic? :) The Vong are... Very different in design than any other faction. I would suggest treating them like creatures that aim for victory of the whole vs private victory. Mandos have honor to guide them while the Vong are, although not PC to say, like Militant Cult followers that will sacrifice everything for the greater good of their people. For all there foibles, they are similar to Zerg in technology and, at times, in mind.
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Sithborg wrote:Except, of course, the Rebel squads that were competitive are no longer. I think the best Rebel squad last year was charging Red Squadron Pilots. And that did not use Riekan, it used the Klatoonian Captain, which only helps Vong if you are running Slayers, which I don't think anybody does over the Jedi Hunter.
Stealing Swap, possibly handy. But you must choose that over Opportunist or the +3/+3. And again, can't steal anything worthwhile that they can actually use against Sep Droids. Maybe San Hill, but if you aren't ready to run San Hill, he hurts more than helps. Stormcommandos are amazingly brutal with Wier against Vong. Still have to run up, take a massive pounding, and still have issue killing one with the Shields. OR Shooters, same issue. Trust me, Atton Rand (original) and Dash suped on Bastilla, chew away JHs.
In the end, look at the CE's that are used in top squads. Very few are actually going to be used, or give the Vong major advantages. The game has evolved. Bastilla has made CE dependence bad. And unless you are running on Vong or Imps, depending on CE's is very dangerous. Which leads to the Yammosk stealing CE's weakening.
Not to mention ganging up on Mace with a group of JHs is only asking for trouble.
And in the end, after V1, I think the designers were trying too much to apply other factions sensibilities or unable to come up with good ideas with the limited unique options available to them. Now, they have a massive movement breaker (along with a second good one). And their ranged defense has been strengthed. Imo, the Yammosk is now a debatable option in certain squads. Honestly, one of the reasons I wanted to preview Nei Rin at Lansing, was to see how Urbanshmi would react. I think NR Vong can be fun now with their 4 Vong pieces (oops? ;) ). Let alone what she brings to the Vong. Yes, they are still amazingly brutal with you Jedi/Sith squads. But's there is ways to fight them, even more so now. They just get the chance to win against Range now, rather than just loose. For someone who has spent the past few years investing in competitive Heroclix tournaments that turn a profit(and thanks to the convention exclusives I've won that allow me to buy more swm), I only play non-competitive SWM games. I'm out of my element in the meta here. Where once I was proud of the knowledge I had, I defer you to anyone who can guide me back into the shark infested waters that is competitive star wars minis. Is there a thread that contains the rundown of last years Gencon, and this years regionals?
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DarkLordVerjal wrote:Is there a thread that contains the rundown of last years Gencon, and this years regionals? There's a list of squads that came in the top 4 in 2012 regionals here: http://www.bloomilk.com/Forums/default.aspx?g=posts&t=10891And http://www.bloomilk.com/Forums/default.aspx?g=posts&t=11767 has opinions on which factions are currently top of the pile. There are a lot of options at the top now; the meta was quite limited where wotc left the game with only five strong factions (the movie four, plus New Republic), while every faction won a Regional last year. There's probably a strong argument that Imperial and Republic were the strongest factions last year, partially because they had the most diverse options available, and Republic took the top two spots at GenCon.
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Thanks a ton. =)
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Can some1 confirm how many pieces each faction gets?? In the main set anyways.
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Galactic Heros
6 OR
5 Sith
7 republic
6 seps
7 rebel
4 imps
6 NR
6 fringe
6 mando
7 vong
TOR microset
3 OR
3 Sith
1 Mando
3 Fringe
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thx 4 the info!
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Kira Carsen (background from http://www.torhead.com/npc/edOjDAD/kira-carsenQuote:Prone to cynicism and a stubborn independent streak, Kira Carsen is an improbable recruit to the Jedi Order. This is partially excused by the fact that she began her Padawan training as a young adult; Kira had spent most of her life up to that point as a homeless drifter, scraping out a miserable existence on some of the galaxy's most unpleasant worlds.
Thanks to her hard-luck upbringing, Kira has considerably more life experience than most Jedi--and a world-weary sophisticate's attitude to match. In the eyes of her peers, Kira is someone who refuses to take anything seriously or fully commit to the Jedi path.
Those who look more closely, however, might detect the glimmer of an optimist peeking through Kira's sarcastic facade. Despite her insistence on questioning its teachings, she has a deep appreciation for the comfort and relative safety she obtained by joining the Jedi Order.
Likes: Being funny, getting involved, mocking and defeating the Empire
Dislikes: Bullying, acting like a mercenary, cooperating with Sith btw, I'm not just being random. She's in the micro-set and she just got previewed on SHNN.
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